Dawinists standing on the panic button.

#1
gsvol

gsvol

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#1
Reset.

This year, as has been happening every year for several decades, various U.S. states are introducing legislation encouraging public-school students to examine scientific evidence against Darwinism. And again, anti-creationist lobby groups, such as the National Center for Science Education,1 are pushing the panic button, claiming that such efforts aim to introduce Christianity into government-run schools.
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BTW the stimulus bill cut out funding for about 1,700 kids in just in Washington DC who were going to private schools.

They will now have to attend failing public schools unless their parents are like the Obamas and can afford tuition for their children at private schools.

Bills are pending or currently passed in Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, and Florida, while more are sprouting in Oklahoma, New Mexico, Michigan, Missouri, and South Carolina. As usual, one tactic the anti-creationists are using is to label such efforts as “creationist” and therefore “religion”, even though the bills only propose teaching more science evidence.

........once students begin considering scientific evidence, Darwinists have lost the war, because they know (at least the leaders know) that they have no real evidence on their side.

........because the Darwinists “control the microphone” (Professor Johnson’s phrase for media dominance), they can still get away with what Phillip Johnson called “cheap lawyer tricks”, such as attacking the man (by labeling him “creationist” for example) rather than discussing the ideas.nce students begin considering scientific evidence, Darwinists have lost the war, because they know (at least the leaders know) that they have no real evidence on their side.
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#2
#2
Perhaps you will enlighten me as to the evidence on the creationist side? Serious question, as I always found it interesting that both sides accuse the other of a serious lack of evidence.
 
#3
#3
Along the same lines what do people think about the ACLU wanting Knox and Davidson county schools to stop blocking gay websites from their computers.

ACLU demands schools stop blocking gay Web sites : Unknown : Knoxville News Sentinel

"The American Civil Liberties Union said today it is demanding that 107 of Tennessee's public school systems - including Knox County and Metro Nashville - stop "illegally preventing students from accessing online information about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues."

I am not a big anti gay rights person, but I would tend to agree with the public schools blocking these types of websites. I know when my future kids are in these schools, I would rather other kids not be at school looking at these types of sites. Nothing is preventing them from looking at these sites elsewhere, but I would rather it not be at school.
 
#4
#4
emainvol said:
Perhaps you will enlighten me as to the evidence on the creationist side?
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"Well the bible says..."





edit - And before you young earth creationists get mad and start listing your "evidence," my post was just poking fun. I'm sure we all know both sides on the issue and aren't going to change our opinions regardless of what is said in this thread. :)
 
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#5
#5
vols4sure said:
Along the same lines what do people think about the ACLU wanting Knox and Davidson county schools to stop blocking gay websites from their computers.

ACLU demands schools stop blocking gay Web sites : Unknown : Knoxville News Sentinel

"The American Civil Liberties Union said today it is demanding that 107 of Tennessee's public school systems - including Knox County and Metro Nashville - stop "illegally preventing students from accessing online information about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues."

I am not a big anti gay rights person, but I would tend to agree with the public schools blocking these types of websites. I know when my future kids are in these schools, I would rather other kids not be at school looking at these types of sites. Nothing is preventing them from looking at these sites elsewhere, but I would rather it not be at school.
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As long as it isn't pornographic or adult in nature I don't really have a problem with it. It isn't my call though.
 
#6
#6
gsvol said:
Reset.



BTW the stimulus bill cut out funding for about 1,700 kids in just in Washington DC who were going to private schools.

They will now have to attend failing public schools unless their parents are like the Obamas and can afford tuition for their children at private schools.
Click to expand...

Complete and utter crap, simple drivel written by somebody that obviously has no idea about the debate between the scientific merits of evolution versus creationism. This isn't about religion, it's about scientific and academic integrity.

Try asking an "intelligent design" advocate to stipulate upfront what would constitute refutation of his world view and you will easily see the difference between the scientific method and the pseudoscientific one.

This opens the door to teaching alchemy alongside chemistry, and astrology alongside astronomy. Not only does this create an academic teaching environment that is less scientific, it also makes it less educational. How long removed do we have to be before we forget that the last time yokels of the creationist sort won political and social battles (because this isn't about science to them) we had prohibition and creationism being taught in schools, both which turned out to be dismal failures?

I love these tactics. First they try to get "secular humanism" classified as a religion. Then they come up with something called "creation science", when that didn't work, they pushed for "equal time", and now when all the cards have been played, the come full circle back to creationism rebranded with a cheap suit called "intelligent design". These people are on the defensive, and it started in Dover, PA in 2005 when after hearing the scientific merits and legal arguments of both sides a Republican judge all but accused them of fraud.

You want equal time? In the interest of "fairness" you want all sides to be heard? Fine, in the spirit of open debate and scientific inquiry, why don't we propose this....let time be set aside for Hindu to the Muslim to the Australian Aboriginal creation myths. After all, who says Genesis should only be honored here? we can surely demand that the principle of "strengths and weaknesses" will be applied evenly.

If any church in in Oklahoma, New Mexico, Michigan, Missouri, South Carolina, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, and Florida receives a tax exemption, or if any religious institution is the beneficiary of any subvention from the Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships, it should devote a portion of its time to laying out the "strengths and weaknesses" of the religious world view, and also to teaching the works of Voltaire, David Hume, Benedict de Spinoza, Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson.
 
#9
#9
vols4sure said:
Personally, I just don't see why Darwinism and religion can't coexist.
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In a science classroom, I don't see how they can. Scientists can worship all they want on Sunday's. As long as they keep their beliefs partioned they absolutely can coexist.
 
#10
#10
vols4sure said:
Along the same lines what do people think about the ACLU wanting Knox and Davidson county schools to stop blocking gay websites from their computers.

ACLU demands schools stop blocking gay Web sites : Unknown : Knoxville News Sentinel

"The American Civil Liberties Union said today it is demanding that 107 of Tennessee's public school systems - including Knox County and Metro Nashville - stop "illegally preventing students from accessing online information about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues."

I am not a big anti gay rights person, but I would tend to agree with the public schools blocking these types of websites. I know when my future kids are in these schools, I would rather other kids not be at school looking at these types of sites. Nothing is preventing them from looking at these sites elsewhere, but I would rather it not be at school.
Click to expand...
As soon as we can get baby humans, polar bears, bald eagles, beagles, parakeets et al from gay partners I think blocking gay websites from young students is prudent and necessary.
 
#11
#11
rjd970 said:
In a science classroom, I don't see how they can. Scientists can worship all they want on Sunday's. As long as they keep their beliefs partioned they absolutely can coexist.
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I am certainly not an expert on the subject, but I think think they can coexist because I don't believe in a literal reading of the book of Genesis.
 
#12
#12
Just a side note - I wonder how many folks that are Darwin zealots also favor issues like welfare, endangered species, etc. Seems like if one takes Darwinism as the natural order of things they would be all in favor of nature taking it's course in all areas. Seems like man getting involved to protect the herd rather than allow natural thinning is more akin to a "greater plan".

Before I get lambasted - I'm just throwing one out fun. Evolutionary theory is alright by me.
 
#13
#13
rjd970 said:
Complete and utter crap, simple drivel written by somebody that obviously has no idea about the debate between the scientific merits of evolution versus creationism. This isn't about religion, it's about scientific and academic integrity.

Try asking an "intelligent design" advocate to stipulate upfront what would constitute refutation of his world view and you will easily see the difference between the scientific method and the pseudoscientific one.

This opens the door to teaching alchemy alongside chemistry, and astrology alongside astronomy. Not only does this create an academic teaching environment that is less scientific, it also makes it less educational. How long removed do we have to be before we forget that the last time yokels of the creationist sort won political and social battles (because this isn't about science to them) we had prohibition and creationism being taught in schools, both which turned out to be dismal failures?

I love these tactics. First they try to get "secular humanism" classified as a religion. Then they come up with something called "creation science", when that didn't work, they pushed for "equal time", and now when all the cards have been played, the come full circle back to creationism rebranded with a cheap suit called "intelligent design". These people are on the defensive, and it started in Dover, PA in 2005 when after hearing the scientific merits and legal arguments of both sides a Republican judge all but accused them of fraud.

You want equal time? In the interest of "fairness" you want all sides to be heard? Fine, in the spirit of open debate and scientific inquiry, why don't we propose this....let time be set aside for Hindu to the Muslim to the Australian Aboriginal creation myths. After all, who says Genesis should only be honored here? we can surely demand that the principle of "strengths and weaknesses" will be applied evenly.

If any church in in Oklahoma, New Mexico, Michigan, Missouri, South Carolina, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, and Florida receives a tax exemption, or if any religious institution is the beneficiary of any subvention from the Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships, it should devote a portion of its time to laying out the "strengths and weaknesses" of the religious world view, and also to teaching the works of Voltaire, David Hume, Benedict de Spinoza, Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson.
Click to expand...

Who was this enlightened mass of mess lifted from?
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#15
#15
volinbham said:
Just a side note - I wonder how many folks that are Darwin zealots also favor issues like welfare, endangered species, etc. Seems like if one takes Darwinism as the natural order of things they would be all in favor of nature taking it's course in all areas. Seems like man getting involved to protect the herd rather than allow natural thinning is more akin to a "greater plan".

Before I get lambasted - I'm just throwing one out fun. Evolutionary theory is alright by me.
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I've thought about this and I think it is a good point. The opposite is true as well. I wonder how many of those on the religious right who think that all humans are God's creatures and are special in the animal kingdom, have a soul from the moment of conception, etc...also agree with economic Darwinism.

....not to mention the last commandment is completely opposite to the idea of a capitalistic society.
 
#16
#16
volinbham said:
Just a side note - I wonder how many folks that are Darwin zealots also favor issues like welfare, endangered species, etc. Seems like if one takes Darwinism as the natural order of things they would be all in favor of nature taking it's course in all areas. Seems like man getting involved to protect the herd rather than allow natural thinning is more akin to a "greater plan".

Before I get lambasted - I'm just throwing one out fun. Evolutionary theory is alright by me.
Click to expand...

I've often wondered the same thing.

Back to the main issue, I don't see what's wrong with teaching evolution, but if we're going to take it all the way to the monkeys to men stuff, that's getting a bit too theoretical to be taught in public schools. I don't really see why that's essential knowledge.
 
#17
#17
rjd970 said:
Over half of it is mine, the rest is Christopher Hitchens.
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I know you're really proud of your evolution / atheist stand, so I just didn't want you to taint it with blatant plagiarism.
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#19
#19
BigPapaVol said:
I know you're really proud of your evolution / atheist stand, so I just didn't want you to taint it with blatant plagiarism.
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Glad your keeping watch out for me...and I assume everybody else as well.
 
#20
#20
Both should easily co-exist as they both involve humans attempting to wrap their minds around things that conform to life according to their own perception.
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#22
#22
rjd970 said:
Glad your keeping watch out for me...and I assume everybody else as well.
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Nah. Pretty much limited to you because you go so far out of your way to overdo this debate, without ever getting anywhere.
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#23
#23
kptvol said:
Back to the main issue, I don't see what's wrong with teaching evolution, but if we're going to take it all the way to the monkeys to men stuff, that's getting a bit too theoretical to be taught in public schools. I don't really see why that's essential knowledge.
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What criteria defines what is "too theoretical"? Are you saying because there isn't a transitional fossil between a cat and dog the whole theory must be wrong? What do we do with the mountain of evidence that supports primates all descended from a single species?
 
#24
#24
BigPapaVol said:
Nah. Pretty much limited to you because you go so far out of your way to overdo this debate, without ever getting anywhere.
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At least your honest about your bias. And I would say I am at least getting somewhere if you feel the need to watch over me.
 
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