Dawinists standing on the panic button.

#51
#51
rjd970 said:
Every other thing in the list is property...slave, ox, ass, etc...your reading what you want by simply declaring wife isn't included, even though she is listed in the middle of the whole passage. The clear intent is that the wife is considered property to be coveted, along with everything else.
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Apparently that distinction isn't as clear as you believe it to be.
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#52
#52
rjd970 said:
Every other thing in the list is property...slave, ox, ass, etc...your reading what you want by simply declaring wife isn't included, even though she is listed in the middle of the whole passage. The clear intent is that the wife is considered property to be coveted, along with everything else.
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Give me a break. And something doesn't have to be property to be coveted. I didn't "declare" the wife isn't included. I simply chose to read something and not search for a way to give it a sinister interpretation. You've proven with every post you're incapable of doing the same.
 
#53
#53
rjd970 said:
Every other thing in the list is property...slave, ox, ass, etc...your reading what you want by simply declaring wife isn't included, even though she is listed in the middle of the whole passage. The clear intent is that the wife is considered property to be coveted, along with everything else.
Click to expand...

You usually bring stronger stuff to this type argument.
 
#54
#54
BigPapaVol said:
I didn't talk about his motives. I said innovation isn't about covering something that exists. It's about meeting a need or desire that exists with something new. Bill Gates changed the world, regardless of the reasons. He might have wanted money, but that's about having gods before God, not coveting.
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Motives is at the heart of it. Coveting provides motivation. If he didn't care about getting what every other rich person has, you still think he would have spent all of his time and effort to simply meet a need or desire? His motivation was certainly generated by wanting what he didn't have, and he did it by filling a niche that was needed.

Your last sentence is basically saying the first commandment is against wanting money. Tell me how that doesn't drive innovation.
 
#56
#56
rjd970 said:
Motives is at the heart of it. Coveting provides motivation. If he didn't care about getting what every other rich person has, you still think he would have spent all of his time and effort to simply meet a need or desire? His motivation was certainly generated by wanting what he didn't have, and he did it by filling a niche that was needed.
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I doubt he sat and stewed in anger thinking about how nice rich folk have things as he typed the code for MS-DOS.
 
#57
#57
rjd970 said:
Motives is at the heart of it. Coveting provides motivation. If he didn't care about getting what every other rich person has, you still think he would have spent all of his time and effort to simply meet a need or desire? His motivation was certainly generated by wanting what he didn't have, and he did it by filling a niche that was needed.

Your last sentence is basically saying the first commandment is against wanting money. Tell me how that doesn't drive innovation.
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First paragraph is worthless. Second is a clear issue for our modern culture, but has amazingly been a problem forever. Wealth can be an issue, but doesn't have to be.
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#58
#58
rjd970 said:
You guys tell me. What in this passage says that the wife is separate from everything else mentioned? I am open to listen here.
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In some interpretations of the Ten Commandments, the coveting thy neighbor's wife is a commandment by itself. Your last sentence makes me laugh.
 
#59
#59
rjd970 said:
Motives is at the heart of it. Coveting provides motivation. If he didn't care about getting what every other rich person has, you still think he would have spent all of his time and effort to simply meet a need or desire? His motivation was certainly generated by wanting what he didn't have, and he did it by filling a niche that was needed.

Your last sentence is basically saying the first commandment is against wanting money. Tell me how that doesn't drive innovation.
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Dude - spend some time with a dictionary. Coveting is not the same as want. It is excessive want, jealousy, envy, etc.

The commandment doesn't say you shouldn't want things - it says don't be filled with envy for things your fellow man has.

I don't know Bill Gates but I'm guessing he wasn't driven by envy, jealousy or excessive greed - like many entrepreneurs he had passion for his idea and wanted to create something big. Along with that comes spoils.
 
#60
#60
rjd970 said:
You guys tell me. What in this passage says that the wife is separate from everything else mentioned? I am open to listen here.
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We've told you - it's possible to covet persons, knowledge, ideas, possessions, etc.

It's like saying you shouldn't be envious of a friends beautiful family. That doesn't mean you can't have your own.
 
#61
#61
cov⋅et
–verb (used with object) 1. to desire wrongfully, inordinately, or without due regard for the rights of others: to covet another's property.
2. to wish for, esp. eagerly: He won the prize they all coveted.

–verb (used without object) 3. to have an inordinate or wrongful desire.

...or....

1. To wish for with eagerness; to desire possession of; -- used in a good sense.

Covet earnestly the best gifts. --1. Cor. xxii. 31.

If it be a sin to covet honor, I am the most offending soul alive. --Shak.


...either way, wanting something your neighbor has is a good thing. It creates drive to do better.
 
#62
#62
rjd970 said:
cov⋅et
–verb (used with object) 1. to desire wrongfully, inordinately, or without due regard for the rights of others: to covet another's property.
2. to wish for, esp. eagerly: He won the prize they all coveted.

–verb (used without object) 3. to have an inordinate or wrongful desire.

...or....

1. To wish for with eagerness; to desire possession of; -- used in a good sense.

Covet earnestly the best gifts. --1. Cor. xxii. 31.

If it be a sin to covet honor, I am the most offending soul alive. --Shak.


...either way, wanting something your neighbor has is a good thing. It creates drive to do better.
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Innovation/capitalism does not REQUIRE covet. Your claim that the 10th commandment is the opposite of the idea of a capitalist society is ridiculous.

Further, you ignored the definitions you posted and continue to equate wanting with covet. They are not the same thing. At best, covet is an extreme form of wanting but wanting can clearly exist without covet.
 
#63
#63
rjd970 said:
...either way, wanting something your neighbor has is a good thing. It creates drive to do better.
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It can also create a drive to steal, kill, or rape. Anyway, there's a difference between me seeing my buddy's new iphone then wanting one for myself and me hating him for having it.
 
#64
#64
volinbham said:
We've told you - it's possible to covet persons, knowledge, ideas, possessions, etc.

It's like saying you shouldn't be envious of a friends beautiful family. That doesn't mean you can't have your own.
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Honestly, how much of the Bible have you read? Mothers and daughters were bought and sold into slavery and settle debts.

So we are just supposed to know that the wife is considered a person by that passage, yet everything in the list is property. There is no examples of knowledge or ideas...or anything else that can be coveted. The passage details the neighbors property, and smack in the middle of it wife is mentioned.

You're telling me that wife meant a person in this passage, and that is the obvious correct interpretation?
 
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#65
#65
rjd970 said:
Honestly, how much of the Bible have you read? Mothers and daughters were bought and sold into slavery and settle debts.

So we are just supposed to know that the wife is considered a person by that passage, yet everything in the list is property. There is no examples of knowledge or ideas...or anything else that can be coveted. The passage details the neighbors property, and smack in the middle of it wife is mentioned.
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You are the one attributing the subject to the passage. We are simply indicating why that passage doesn't necessarily imply that as the word covet is equally applied to persons as it is objects.

Your whole argument about this commandment and it's compatibility with capitalism is one of the most bizarre critiques of religion I've ever seen. Adding the notion that wives were viewed as objects in this commandment just adds to the strangeness of the argument.
 
#66
#66
rjd970 said:
You're telling me that wife meant a person in this passage, and that is the obvious correct interpretation?
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Seems to me you've gone out of your way to read it in a way that, "tells [you] God couldn't have really meant this garbage." Don't lie and tell us you've read the Bible without an agenda. Every verse you read was a deliberate effort to find this type of interpretation.
 
#67
#67
I can see a point in the difference between wanting and coveting, I'll admit that. I still say that coveting, whether it be an extreme version of wanting or whatever, is still good for society if it drives people to better themselves and work hard. Capitalism included.

I still see no way the above Bible passage can be interpreted to mean wife is considered anything other than property. Wife doesn't have to be considered property, sure, but that is not what the passage is saying.
 
#68
#68
rjd970 said:
I still see no way the above Bible passage can be interpreted to mean wife is considered anything other than property. Wife doesn't have to be considered property, sure, but that is not what the passage is saying.
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You are either an idiot or lying.
 
#69
#69
kptvol said:
Seems to me you've gone out of your way to read it in a way that, "tells [you] God couldn't have really meant this garbage." Don't lie and tell us you've read the Bible without an agenda. Every verse you read was a deliberate effort to find this type of interpretation.
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I went to daily early morning Bible study growing up. I used to fervently defend my faith. I am well versed in the way passages are used and interpreted to be benign. The simple truth is most of the Bible, especially the OT, is barbaric and it takes more faith to see the good than the bad in it.
 
#70
#70
rjd970 said:
I went to daily early morning Bible study growing up. I used to fervently defend my faith. I am well versed in the way passages are used and interpreted to be benign. The simple truth is most of the Bible, especially the OT, is barbaric and it takes more faith to see the good than the bad in it.
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Those Ten Commandments sure are horrible.
 
#73
#73
VBH, here it is again....

Exodus 20:17 "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's."

What is a house?

What is a slave (male or female)?

What is an ox?

What is an ass?

...these were all considered property in OT times. Tell me if I'm wrong, but you are assuming that wife meant something else other than property, even though that stipulation wasn't said. I am assuming wife meant property, because everything included in the list was obviously property.

Which interpretation makes more sense to you?
 
#74
#74
rjd970 said:
I'll go even further, and declare half have nothing to do with morality at all.
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Which ones? Given that morality is essentially a set of principles distinguishing good from bad, which ones don't deal with this distinction?

(not asking if they match your morality)
 
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