Debt Limit Bottom Line

#151
#151
The rhetoric just reached a new level with Obama going full on scare mode about social security.
 
#152
#152
GAVol said:
The rhetoric just reached a new level with Obama going full on scare mode about social security.
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Didn't think they would wait this long. This deal is headed toward who to blame/scare tactics, instead of the problem.

We need the government to get involved and sort this out...
 
#156
#156
I'm no longer sure on who to believe. Obama and the Democrats, as well as what seems like every independent non-political business commentator I've heard says that breaching August 2 without a raise in the ceiling would be awful, and possibly cataclysmic for the entire world economy, but especially our own.

All the right wingers say bah, humbug. Its no big deal.

Who is right?
 
#157
#157
lawgator1 said:
I'm no longer sure on who to believe. Obama and the Democrats, as well as what seems like every independent non-political business commentator I've heard says that breaching August 2 without a raise in the ceiling would be awful, and possibly cataclysmic for the entire world economy, but especially our own.

All the right wingers say bah, humbug. Its no big deal.

Who is right?
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So at that point it's ok to use political scare tactics on SS?
 
#158
#158
lawgator1 said:
I'm no longer sure on who to believe. Obama and the Democrats, as well as what seems like every independent non-political business commentator I've heard says that breaching August 2 without a raise in the ceiling would be awful, and possibly cataclysmic for the entire world economy, but especially our own.

All the right wingers say bah, humbug. Its no big deal.

Who is right?
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if we actually default it would be cataclysmic. no chance in hell it happens. even obama isn't that dumb. he CAN sign a 30 day delay btw, so don't think he wont be blamed if they actually do have a technical default.
 
#159
#159
droski said:
if we actually default it would be cataclysmic. no chance in hell it happens. even obama isn't that dumb. he CAN sign a 30 day delay btw, so don't think he wont be blamed if they actually do have a technical default.
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I am mystified by this. I thought you wanted the deficit dealt with. Let's end these stop gap things, making it harder and harder and harder to get a deal of any significance done.

The only explanation I can come up with as to why the GOP is now touting this short term solution plan is because they see it as a political advantage for them to delay the inevitable. Meanwhile, Obama and the Dems have stepped up to the plate and in good faith said they would be willing to put their names on a plan that would cut what was, just a few years ago, the absolute third rail of politics.

The GOP side of this negotiation is an absolute farce. They talk tough about what they want, and when the administration says okay, now here's the other side of that coin, the House leadership is stuck and can;t bargain on anything because of the TP wing of the party, and guys like Norquist and their gimmicky tax pledge extortion tactics.

Honestly, its time for Boehner to step up and me a freakin' man. Tell Cantor and the rest of the tin foil hat crowd that running the federal government is not, in fact, like running a lemonade stand. Boehner needs to take control and do what's right.

Right now, the only person standing up and willing to make deep and responsible cuts in social spending by the federal government is Barack Obama.
 
#160
#160
Flipped to the local lib talk radio station this morning to hear the hosts going off about Obama being a closet Republican, callers calling in saying if he's up for re-election then they're going to sit at home and not vote, etc. so I presume he's done something right.
 
#161
#161
lawgator1 said:
I am mystified by this. I thought you wanted the deficit dealt with. Let's end these stop gap things, making it harder and harder and harder to get a deal of any significance done.

The only explanation I can come up with as to why the GOP is now touting this short term solution plan is because they see it as a political advantage for them to delay the inevitable. Meanwhile, Obama and the Dems have stepped up to the plate and in good faith said they would be willing to put their names on a plan that would cut what was, just a few years ago, the absolute third rail of politics.

The GOP side of this negotiation is an absolute farce. They talk tough about what they want, and when the administration says okay, now here's the other side of that coin, the House leadership is stuck and can;t bargain on anything because of the TP wing of the party, and guys like Norquist and their gimmicky tax pledge extortion tactics.

Honestly, its time for Boehner to step up and me a freakin' man. Tell Cantor and the rest of the tin foil hat
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crowd that running the federal government is not, in fact, like running a lemonade stand. Boehner needs to take control and do what's right.

Right now, the only person standing up and willing to make deep and responsible cuts in social spending by the federal government is Barack Obama.
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i honestly have no idea what the hell you are talking about. what's your theory? the gop wants teh US to default?
 
#162
#162
BO's plan will not cut anything of substance but will result in higher taxes as a ridiculous time. He knows this and it's the only reason he's agreeing to it. What was the last thing cut after a 10yr promise?
 
#164
#164
utvolpj said:
BO's plan will not cut anything of substance but will result in higher taxes as a ridiculous time. He knows this and it's the only reason he's agreeing to it. What was the last thing cut after a 10yr promise?
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If he's not proposing any real cuts, why is the collective head of liberal America exploding?
 
#166
#166
milohimself said:
If he's not proposing any real cuts, why is the collective head of liberal America exploding?
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because they are stupid? and don't think a good portion of this is pushing the "obama is really not a socialist" agenda for the next election.
 
#167
#167
milohimself said:
If he's not proposing any real cuts, why is the collective head of liberal America exploding?
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Because he dared to mention something about entitlement reform.

The problem is that neither Obama nor Bpehner have the juice to build consensus among their own followers.
 
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#168
#168
droski said:
because they are stupid? and don't think a good portion of this is pushing the "obama is really not a socialist" agenda for the next election.
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Because liberals are stupid. Great answer. If I wanted to hear meaningless partisan insults tossed around by airheaded idiots, I'd turn on talk radio. Step your game up.

Also, any time anybody reaches into the old talking points bag about Obama and pulls out socialist without demonstrating working knowledge of what it means, I'm tuning out from then on.

GAVol said:
Because he dared to mention something about entitlement reform.
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I'd say that if freaks people out, there is legitimate concern from the left that he is open to serious reforms. Clinton signed off on bigger welfare cuts than either Reagan or the Bushes. I have never bought the "he's a socialist" pants-crapping from the right about PBO, I do think he is legitimately open to making serious cuts to the big three.

As far as taxes, I think it's mainly a function of the Democratic caucus. This thing was never going to get accomplished without a tax hike, wouldn't have mattered who was in office.
 
#169
#169
milohimself said:
Because liberals are stupid. Great answer. If I wanted to hear meaningless partisan insults tossed around by airheaded idiots, I'd turn on talk radio. Step your game up.

Also, any time anybody reaches into the old talking points bag about Obama and pulls out socialist without demonstrating working knowledge of what it means, I'm tuning .
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there were plenty of republicans taht though bush wasn't socially conservative enough. plenty of idiots to go around. people thinking obama is now a conservative is evidence of nothing. all it is evidence of is the wackjobs taking control of the party.

as for the socialist manta what pray tell does it mean to you? if you want to go by the textbook definition there hasn't been a single socialist leader in the history of any country. anyone denying obama is pushing euro style socialism hard has their head in the ground.
 
#170
#170
I've reached the point where I'm fine with there being give and take on both sides to fix some long-term problems, including small tax increases as long as there is reciprocal legitimate spending cuts.

The problem is I'm not sure there is a single person in Washington with the guts to a) propose such a thing, and b) implement it.
 
#171
#171
droski said:
you seriously think they aren't going to agree to a raise in the debt ceiling?
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Well, there's an impasse here. There is absolutely no chance the Dems will pass anything that doesn't include a tax increase, and a sizable portion of the Republican caucus was elected partly on a pledge that they will never, under any circumstances ever, ever, ever vote for a tax hike.

Many members of both parties view -- with some legitimacy -- even an inch of concession as political suicide.

I had hope for a second here that this thing was going to pass, but I'll give the debt ceiling raise (extension aside) a 50-50 chance of getting done. Worst case scenario anyways. Similar to '08, perhaps.
 
#172
#172
I honestly think that Obama understands that the programs are not sustainable. He's a politician, of course. But, for maybe the first time in modern history, the public awareness is high enough, and the understanding of the situation measured enough, that is possible for members of both political parties to sign off on a plan that will do things like: a) raise the eligibility age to 67; b) place a bit more of the cost of medical care onto Medicare supplement policies; and c) reduce the mandatory benefits of the Medicaid programs on the states.

Sure, Obama favors tax increases on the wealthiest and on corporations as half (give or take) of the solution of how to pay off $14 trillion in debt. We can debate the wisdom of that. But don't overlook the fact that you have a Democratic president, a liberal, standing there saying he'll sign a long term spending plan that cuts the social programs that have been the measuring stick for Dems for many decades.

That's something. Its a lot, really. The GOP now has to step up, too. They have to be willing to pitch in on cutting the deficit by raising some revenue to go along with the cuts. For one thing, its arguably morally right.

Far more important, it is what will help sell the plan to the American public when the reality starts to set in that the government simply cannot play as big a role in our collective retirements as we imagined it about ten years ago.

Obama has stepped up. Now let's see some leadership on the other side.
 
#173
#173
milohimself said:
Well, there's an impasse here. There is absolutely no chance the Dems will pass anything that doesn't include a tax increase, and a sizable portion of the Republican caucus was elected partly on a pledge that they will never, under any circumstances ever, ever, ever vote for a tax hike.

Many members of both parties view -- with some legitimacy -- even an inch of concession as political suicide.

I had hope for a second here that this thing was going to pass, but I'll give the debt ceiling raise (extension aside) a 50-50 chance of getting done. Worst case scenario anyways. Similar to '08, perhaps.
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they don't need every republican to pass it. the vitrol from obama is very similar to his prior actions. complain of lack of comprimise from teh republicans despite not willing to comprimise yourself. everytime he pullls the "let's screw the rich because if we don't little johnnie might die" card he alienates anyone who might be willing to agree to resonable plan.
 
#174
#174
lawgator1 said:
I honestly think that Obama understands that the programs are not sustainable. He's a politician, of course. But, for maybe the first time in modern history, the public awareness is high enough, and the understanding of the situation measured enough, that is possible for members of both political parties to sign off on a plan that will do things like: a) raise the eligibility age to 67; b) place a bit more of the cost of medical care onto Medicare supplement policies; and c) reduce the mandatory benefits of the Medicaid programs on the states.

Sure, Obama favors tax increases on the wealthiest and on corporations as half (give or take) of the solution of how to pay off $14 trillion in debt. We can debate the wisdom of that. But don't overlook the fact that you have a Democratic president, a liberal, standing there saying he'll sign a long term spending plan that cuts the social programs that have been the measuring stick for Dems for many decades.

That's something. Its a lot, really. The GOP now has to step up, too. They have to be willing to pitch in on cutting the deficit by raising some revenue to go along with the cuts. For one thing, its arguably morally right.

Far more important, it is what will help sell the plan to the American public when the reality starts to set in that the government simply cannot play as big a role in our collective retirements as we imagined it about ten years ago.

Obama has stepped up. Now let's see some leadership on the other side.
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why wait to cut the programs then if he is serious about dealing with the problem?
 
#175
#175
droski said:
why wait to cut the programs then if he is serious about dealing with the problem?
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I honestly don;t understand the complete mix on that. I know the goal is $4 trillion over ten years. I did hear some commentary this morning on Bloomberg about the issue of whether to do it up front or overtime. The one argument I heard on that as I drove in was that there is some concern that making the cuts too deep too fast might have some real negative effects on the economy.

I think it fair to say that if a deal of this magnitude was reached ($4 trillion over ten years), and the debt ceiling coincidentally increased thereby, and maybe if some sort of solution to the European issues might evolve, then you could see some real turn around. I know I'm no expert on it, but the commentary does seem to be that if the debt were under control and the banking industry felt safer, maybe the money that is sitting on the sidelines gets freed up to invest and create demand, etc. It just feels like we are slipping back now into morass and feeble growth, but that we are in a moment where things could, if everyone would bite their respective bullets, turn around in quick fashion.
 
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