Deconstruction - religion and politics

[Roustabout]

I was a committed conservative Republican and a very committed Mormon, and in both cases, I adopted a new ideology. I was confronted with external evidence that refuted what I wanted to believe, and I also had internal battles about what I saw as my core principles that were supposed to jive with each ideology but didn't. Examples, Republicans aren't committed to small government, quite the opposite, so move on. If God exists and is a perfect, omnipotent Father, then all he'll care about is how you treated other people. Why on earth would you need more religion than that? What kind of perfect Father would allow his children who are super nice people to be punished after this life because they lacked faith, while bad people with faith get glory? I'm not saying nobody can find convincing ways to reconcile those conflicts, but I sure can't.

My first reaction was usually to dismiss or ignore evidence or thoughts that were contradictory to my beliefs, but deep down, I just want to stand on the side of truth and that desire eventually (hopefully) overpowers whatever biases I might have on these sort of big questions.

So how have you treated others?

 

[n_huffhines]

So how have you treated others?

Not as well as I'd like

 

[Wafflestomper]

I’m your huckleberry
Say when

 

[825VOL]

As a recovering fundamentalist, I can definitely sympathize. One of my theologian friends (who is also a post-deconstruction minister) wrote a blog series on this this topic. I wanted to hate it at first (I mean, what good follower doesn't want to see their team rewarded and the losers punished?) but the more I read the more I realized it's what I already believed in my core. And it brought me peace.

HELL 1

Thanks for the link. It was a nice read.

 

[LouderVol]

What does He encourage?

change

 

[rjd970]

My views on a lot of topics has changed as a result of this board. Some other views have been reinforced that I was right to begin with.

 

[volinbham]

Religion? Raised Presbyterian but never very hard core. Asked the "are other religions going to Hell" question as a teen and found a sympathetic ear at my church. Not religious now but do believe in some creative force. View religion as prisms through which people connect to the greater system so as long as they aren't too out there I don't have an issue with any religion though I don't feel the need to practice one myself.

Politics? Was regular Republican have moved Libertarian steadily since late 90s. Given this entire forum is dedicated to calling out faults of government leaders I'm continually amazed people advocate for turning over more power to the government, presumably on the hope that if the "good guys" get elected they'll finally get it right.

 

[volinbham]

My views on a lot of topics has changed as a result of this board. Some other views have been reinforced that I was right to begin with.

same - when it's discussion and not naked partisanship there is valuable enlightenment to be gained here.

I'll put in a plug for Reason (a Libertarian rag) - they always have adult conversations and regularly sponsor and post debates on ideas (capitalism v socialism for example) that are lacking vitriol and full of substance.

 

[Roustabout]

Not as well as I'd like

That kind of pulls the rug out on what you just said. At least regarding your theological ideas. I’m with you in rejecting Mormonism, but in doing so you might throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[n_huffhines]

That kind of pulls the rug out on what you just said. At least regarding your theological ideas. I’m with you in rejecting Mormonism, but in doing so you might throw the baby out with the bath water.

So you think my theological ideas are that I need to be exactly the person I want to be or I'm doomed or something? I don't believe that. If that's true, we're all doomed.

Regardless, my beliefs don't determine what is real, they're just a guide. If faith doesn't save you, then at least you had faith and thar was probably of some use to you (gave you comfort?). I personally find almost no value in faith. If being nice to people doesn't save you, at least you were nice to people. I find a lot of value in being nice.

 

[Roustabout]

So you think my theological ideas are that I need to be exactly the person I want to be or I'm doomed or something? I don't believe that. If that's true, we're all doomed.

Regardless, my beliefs don't determine what is real, they're just a guide. If faith doesn't save you, then at least you had faith and thar was probably of some use to you (gave you comfort?). I personally find almost no value in faith. If being nice to people doesn't save you, at least you were nice to people. I find a lot of value in being nice.

I’m not sure what you are asking in the first part.

I’d love to have a serious convro about it. So, don’t take my challenge to what you said as an attack. I’m very interesting in discussing it more. I took the time to read what you wrote and it sparked those questions. I’m assuming since you shared it that you are able to discuss and defend what you wrote.

You made a statement about god (if god is this, then this). I asked you how that applies personally for you and your answer didn’t conform with what you shared.

We agree that beliefs don’t determine what’s real.

-Should our beliefs conform to reality?

 

[n_huffhines]

I’m not sure what you are asking in the first part.

I’d love to have a serious convro about it. So, don’t take my challenge to what you said as an attack. I’m very interesting in discussing it more. I took the time to read what you wrote and it sparked those questions. I’m assuming since you shared it that you are able to discuss and defend what you wrote.

You made a statement about god (if god is this, then this). I asked you how that applies personally for you and your answer didn’t conform with what you shared.

We agree that beliefs don’t determine what’s real.

-Should our beliefs conform to reality?

Of course, the problem is we don't know what the reality is with these questions.

You probably need to explain why you think my beliefs pull the rug out if I'm not as nice as I'd like to be. Are you as faithful as you want to be? If somebody isn't as faithful as they'd like to be, does that somehow pull the rug out from their ideological ideas? Why would my imperfect personal level of kindness have any bearing on the validity of my beliefs?

 

[Orange_Crush]

So you think my theological ideas are that I need to be exactly the person I want to be or I'm doomed or something? I don't believe that. If that's true, we're all doomed.

Regardless, my beliefs don't determine what is real, they're just a guide. If faith doesn't save you, then at least you had faith and thar was probably of some use to you (gave you comfort?). I personally find almost no value in faith. If being nice to people doesn't save you, at least you were nice to people. I find a lot of value in being nice.

Hmmm... I think you may be on to something...

I was a committed conservative Republican and a very committed Mormon, and in both cases, I adopted a new ideology. I was confronted with external evidence that refuted what I wanted to believe, and I also had internal battles about what I saw as my core principles that were supposed to jive with each ideology but didn't. Examples, Republicans aren't committed to small government, quite the opposite, so move on. If God exists and is a perfect, omnipotent Father, then all he'll care about is how you treated other people. Why on earth would you need more religion than that? What kind of perfect Father would allow his children who are super nice people to be punished after this life because they lacked faith, while bad people with faith get glory? I'm not saying nobody can find convincing ways to reconcile those conflicts, but I sure can't.

My first reaction was usually to dismiss or ignore evidence or thoughts that were contradictory to my beliefs, but deep down, I just want to stand on the side of truth and that desire eventually (hopefully) overpowers whatever biases I might have on these sort of big questions.

 

[n_huffhines]

Hmmm... I think you may be on to something...

Here's a thought exercise. Say you're a perfect omnipotent creator and Father...are you going to send some of your children to hell and accept others into your presence for eternity? And if so, are you going to base it on whether or not they worshipped you in a specific way? Sending people to hell because they didn't recognize you the way you wanted to be recognized seems like the actions of an imperfect, prideful, narcissistic, petty, and weird God.

What is the purpose of faith? Meaning why is it the virtue that saves? It's the least substantial of all the virtues. People need us to be nice to them. People need us to be honest. They need us to be charitable. Etc. God doesn't need us to worship him.

 

[Roustabout]

Of course, the problem is we don't know what the reality is with these questions.

You probably need to explain why you think my beliefs pull the rug out if I'm not as nice as I'd like to be. Are you as faithful as you want to be? If somebody isn't as faithful as they'd like to be, does that somehow pull the rug out from their ideological ideas? Why would my imperfect personal level of kindness have any bearing on the validity of my beliefs?

What you said in bold is a definitive statement about reality. It’s self defeating.

Regarding your beliefs. I don’t have a big enough picture to make that statement, yet. What you said APPEARS to conflict. Essentially you’re saying, “If a god is this way (omni3) then this is the way it should be.“ One, I don’t think your conclusion flows from your premise. And, based on your own confession it doesn’t sound like you are living up to that anyway.

Your beliefs ought to affect your actions. Again I’ll ask, should our beliefs conform to reality?

 

[Roustabout]

Here's a thought exercise. Say you're a perfect omnipotent creator and Father...are you going to send some of your children to hell and accept others into your presence for eternity? And if so, are you going to base it on whether or not they worshipped you in a specific way? Sending people to hell because they didn't recognize you the way you wanted to be recognized seems like the actions of an imperfect, prideful, narcissistic, petty, and weird God.

What is the purpose of faith? Meaning why is it the virtue that saves? It's the least substantial of all the virtues. People need us to be nice to them. People need us to be honest. They need us to be charitable. Etc. God doesn't need us to worship him.

You’ve already drawn your conclusion. It’s question begging and well poisoning. You say we we don’t reality with these questions and then posit reality.

Secondly, you are tearing faith as a commodity. Faith is simply confidence that something is true. I believe the airplane is worthy and the captain is well trained, therefore I trust myself to be flown in it. If I lacked faith in those things I would not get aboard.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Here's a thought exercise. Say you're a perfect omnipotent creator and Father...are you going to send some of your children to hell and accept others into your presence for eternity? And if so, are you going to base it on whether or not they worshipped you in a specific way? Sending people to hell because they didn't recognize you the way you wanted to be recognized seems like the actions of an imperfect, prideful, narcissistic, petty, and weird God.

What is the purpose of faith? Meaning why is it the virtue that saves? It's the least substantial of all the virtues. People need us to be nice to them. People need us to be honest. They need us to be charitable. Etc. God doesn't need us to worship him.

I don't want to step on Roust's toes or plans for conversation. I'll watch your points develop unless he feels this won't get in the way of your discussion.

Brief responses having said that...

I am an imperfect father that kicked my daughter out of my house due to her choices. We loved her as much when we made that choice as we did when we invited her back into home and relationship due to her choices.

When one considers Hell, they need to have an idea what it is. I see it as a complete separation from God, the only source of good, love, etc... for whom we were created to be perfectly fulfilled in relation and in worshiping Him. That complete separation will be torment.

And if so, are you going to base it on whether or not they worshipped you in a specific way?

You'll need to define what a perfect God is to define how He should respond, and by what standards.

Sending people to hell because they didn't recognize you the way you wanted to be recognized seems...

You'll need to define that perfect God's end goal to define how He should respond, and by what standards.

...like the actions of an imperfect, prideful, narcissistic, petty, and weird God..

You'll need to define that perfect God to judge whether He is imperfect in His self-appraisals, and whether He feels as though He deserves worship, etc... For instance, if He truly is perfect in every way, and deserving of all praise and worship, is it petty to know that and demand that? Is it narcissism? If He is perfect in every way, and truly is all of that and deserving of all of that, is it even possible for Him to deny it and act as though He's not? Or would that be a lie, which is impossible for Him?

You're taking a lot of shortcuts to your conclusions, in my opinion.

As to the purpose of faith, and its virtue, I'll offer a "too short" answer. I see it as the humility to accept from God what we can't produce for ourselves. To me, faith is the admission that I'm a sinner, God is perfect, and I can never measure up or produce what's needed, so I approach Him admitting that I need grace.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Here's a thought exercise. Say you're a perfect omnipotent creator and Father...are you going to send some of your children to hell and accept others into your presence for eternity? And if so, are you going to base it on whether or not they worshipped you in a specific way? Sending people to hell because they didn't recognize you the way you wanted to be recognized seems like the actions of an imperfect, prideful, narcissistic, petty, and weird God.

What is the purpose of faith? Meaning why is it the virtue that saves? It's the least substantial of all the virtues. People need us to be nice to them. People need us to be honest. They need us to be charitable. Etc. God doesn't need us to worship him.

ANd I'm hurt you think I've never entertained that thought exercise... Wounded, I tell ya.

 

[n_huffhines]

What you said in bold is a definitive statement about reality. It’s self defeating.

Regarding your beliefs. I don’t have a big enough picture to make that statement, yet. What you said APPEARS to conflict. Essentially you’re saying, “If a god is this way (omni3) then this is the way it should be.“ One, I don’t think your conclusion flows from your premise. And, based on your own confession it doesn’t sound like you are living up to that anyway.

Your beliefs ought to affect your actions. Again I’ll ask, should our beliefs conform to reality?

If God is perfect, shouldn't he be good? I think the conclusion flows from the premise, and if it doesn't, I'm fine where I stand. If God isn't good, then why should I want to be in his presence? If God wants recognition above all, then he's not the kind of God I'm interested in.

You're not answering questions in this convo, just asking them?

 

[0nelilreb]

If God is perfect, shouldn't he be good? I think the conclusion flows from the premise, and if it doesn't, I'm fine where I stand. If God isn't good, then why should I want to be in his presence? If God wants recognition above all, then he's not the kind of God I'm interested in.

You're not answering questions in this convo, just asking them?

That’s why god gives us the ability to choose for ourselves instead of being forced . You have the choice to live your life the way you want , he then has the choice to decide if he wants you in his presence just like you made your choices , he will make his .

 

[Roustabout]

If God is perfect, shouldn't he be good? I think the conclusion flows from the premise, and if it doesn't, I'm fine where I stand. If God isn't good, then why should I want to be in his presence? If God wants recognition above all, then he's not the kind of God I'm interested in.

You're not answering questions in this convo, just asking them?

As I pointed out, you can’t answer a question if you feel the question is begging the question or poisoning the well. I’ll put it in a more obvious form.

Wife: if you were a good husband you would buy me that Ferrari.

This is much more blatant but it gets to the crux. Who is defining “good” in this situation, you or God?

So, if you have wrong ideas about god I can’t imagine you’d want to be in His presence. Based on the way you’ve phrased the question it seems you have some baggage. That’s fine, I do to.

 

[n_huffhines]

I don't want to step on Roust's toes or plans for conversation. I'll watch your points develop unless he feels this won't get in the way of your discussion.

Brief responses having said that...

I am an imperfect father that kicked my daughter out of my house due to her choices. We loved her as much when we made that choice as we did when we invited her back into home and relationship due to her choices.

When one considers Hell, they need to have an idea what it is. I see it as a complete separation from God, the only source of good, love, etc... for whom we were created to be perfectly fulfilled in relation and in worshiping Him. That complete separation will be torment.

You'll need to define what a perfect God is to define how He should respond, and by what standards.

You'll need to define that perfect God's end goal to define how He should respond, and by what standards.

You'll need to define that perfect God to judge whether He is imperfect in His self-appraisals, and whether He feels as though He deserves worship, etc... For instance, if He truly is perfect in every way, and deserving of all praise and worship, is it petty to know that and demand that? Is it narcissism? If He is perfect in every way, and truly is all of that and deserving of all of that, is it even possible for Him to deny it and act as though He's not? Or would that be a lie, which is impossible for Him?

You're taking a lot of shortcuts to your conclusions, in my opinion.

As to the purpose of faith, and its virtue, I'll offer a "too short" answer. I see it as the humility to accept from God what we can't produce for ourselves. To me, faith is the admission that I'm a sinner, God is perfect, and I can never measure up or produce what's needed, so I approach Him admitting that I need grace.

Why don't you define "perfect God" and then answer. I'm asking you what you believe. If you don't believe God is perfect, then the question doesn't even matter. If you believe that he is, then answer based on what you think that means.

I personally can't imagine a perfect being that would make faith/worship the only thing that matters in the judgment of our probationary state on earth. It's absurd to me. Beyond that, I can't even imagine a perfect being that would put faith/worship among his priorities in judging us.

"That guy is the perfect boss. Above all, he rewards ass-kissing." - no one ever

 

[1972 Grad]

Why don't you define "perfect God" and then answer. I'm asking you what you believe. If you don't believe God is perfect, then the question doesn't even matter. If you believe that he is, then answer based on what you think that means.

I personally can't imagine a perfect being that would make faith/worship the only thing that matters in the judgment of our probationary state on earth. It's absurd to me. Beyond that, I can't even imagine a perfect being that puts faith/worship among his priorities in judging us.

"That guy is the perfect boss. Above all, he rewards ass-kissing." - no one ever

Wouldn't it be easier to just not believe ?

 

[AshG]

That’s why god gives us the ability to choose for ourselves instead of being forced . You have the choice to live your life the way you want , he then has the choice to decide if he wants you in his presence just like you made your choices , he will make his .

Unless you're a Calvinist, in which case you're either born in or born out and have no choice in the matter.

 

[n_huffhines]

As I pointed out, you can’t answer a question if you feel the question is begging the question or poisoning the well. I’ll put it in a more obvious form.

Wife: if you were a good husband you would buy me that Ferrari.

This is much more blatant but it gets to the crux. Who is defining “good” in this situation, you or God?

So, if you have wrong ideas about god I can’t imagine you’d want to be in His presence. Based on the way you’ve phrased the question it seems you have some baggage. That’s fine, I do to.

Man, if we knew what God's definition of anything was, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Of course I am defining good. I'm talking about my beliefs. When I ask you about it, I'm asking for your thoughts applying your definition of good. The wife in your example is presenting a manipulative, selfish challenge to her husband. I'm just trying to figure out how I should make my way through the world. I know that I'm never going to get answers to these questions in this life, so I'm forced to fill in the blanks with personal beliefs and feelings. I personally believe that being nice is far more important than believing in something I'm not sure is there. I don't even see the point of that.

Wife: a perfect husband wouldn't demand that I worship him