Deconstruction - religion and politics

#76
#76
n_huffhines said:
But why, tho? Why would anyone set up a system of rules where that is the only way, when any system can be set up? I get it if somebody were to say "God is subject to eternal laws that dictate that" but if that's true, then he's not really omnipotent. So he either sets up whatever system he thinks is best or he's not omnipotent.
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All religions from the beginning of time are designed to control the people.
 
#77
#77
n_huffhines said:
One hell of a straw man you've built.
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You are welcome to show me how this is a SM. When I said you were question begging I spelled out why that was the case. You’ve just made a bald assertion.

No skin off my nose. If you’re position isn’t up for critique don’t share it on a forum.
 
#79
#79
n_huffhines said:
But why, tho? Why would anyone set up a system of rules where that is the only way, when any system can be set up? I get it if somebody were to say "God is subject to eternal laws that dictate that", which some people believe, but if that's true, then he's not really omnipotent. So he either sets up whatever system he thinks is best or he's not omnipotent.
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Can it? That shows a fundamental problem in you’re thinking. Your entire statement assumes God is arbitrary.
 
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#80
#80
Roustabout said:
You are welcome to show me how this is a SM. When I said you were question begging I spelled out why that was the case. You’ve just made a bald assertion.

No skin off my nose. If you’re position isn’t up for critique don’t share it on a forum.
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Why so salty? My position is totally up for critique and I genuinely engaged you, but you didn't answer my questions and you ascribed me positions and ideas, then went on rants about those positions. Forgive me for failing to continue this disingenuous conversation.
 
#81
#81
Roustabout said:
Can it? That shows a fundamental problem in you’re thinking. Your entire statement assumes God is arbitrary.
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Can it what? Can any system be set up? Yes, if God is omnipotent. I don't think I'm assuming God is arbitrary (not sure I would use that word), I am saying if he's omnipotent, then he can be arbitrary. Are you assuming God can't be arbitrary?
 
#82
#82
n_huffhines said:
Nobody will answer this question, but if you were God, what kind of probationary system would you set up? Would you base salvation on faith? Why?
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I can answer your made up question . There’s no probation . You commit a sin , ask for forgiveness and change your ways from the thing you are asking forgiveness for and you are forgiven , never to be thought of again . God doesn’t do probations just like he doesn’t do lukewarm . He says he would rather you be Hot or cold than lukewarm .
 
#83
#83
Orange_Crush said:
Unless I read it wrong, I think he's saying we can use logic to know some things of God, but can't get caught in the trap of thinking He has to conform to any/every of our logic, or think that He can be fully described by our logic.

I think...
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Yeah but I used like 200 more words in a much more confusing manner.
 
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#84
#84
AshG said:
I believe that God created us in their image, and is probably facepalm theirself because we've been recreating them in our image as long as we've existed.
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Man this is some shower thoughts grade genius here. I like it
 
#85
#85
0nelilreb said:
I can answer your made up question . There’s no probation . You commit a sin , ask for forgiveness and change your ways from the thing you are asking forgiveness for and you are forgiven , never to be thought of again . God doesn’t do probations just like he doesn’t do lukewarm . He says he would rather you be Hot or cold than lukewarm .
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LOL @ "made up question". Isn't every question made up?

So you don't believe that our existence on earth is a probationary state? What is the point of it, then? The system you are describing is probationary in that you are sent to be tested for penitence.
 
#86
#86
n_huffhines said:
So you don't believe that our existence on earth is a probationary state? What is the point of it, then?
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No it’s not a probation to try to get to a different place ( my opinion ) god made man and he saw it was good . After the creation he gave us everything we needed including a mate for us to be happy . I don’t recall anywhere that I’ve read he made us so we could be on probation.

Edit : your question of what is the point is really you asking “ what’s the meaning of life “
 
#87
#87
0nelilreb said:
No it’s not a probation to try to get to a different place ( my opinion ) god made man and he saw it was good . After the creation he gave us everything we needed including a mate for us to be happy . I don’t recall anywhere that I’ve read he made us so we could be on probation.

Edit : your question of what is the point is really you asking “ what’s the meaning of life “
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Probation means period of testing. The probation I'm talking about is a test to see if we are worthy to live with God. IDK if/where it might be explicitly written in scripture, but if we live our lives here on earth, then are judged for them, then rewarded or punished, the implication is that the life here on earth was a test, right?
 
#88
#88
n_huffhines said:
LOL @ "made up question". Isn't every question made up?

So you don't believe that our existence on earth is a probationary state? What is the point of it, then? The system you are describing is probationary in that you are sent to be tested for penitence.
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No I don’t believe it’s a probationary state , God ( I believe ) wanted to make man which has a soul ) the angels do not . He also gave man free will to go along with that soul . It’s like everything in life you earn what you get . Nobody can answer as for the why of God deciding to make man , maybe just simply because he could and wanted to . Again that’s the literal question of what is the meaning of life .
 
#89
#89
n_huffhines said:
Fair enough. I don't think I'm trying to explain God, tho. I'm testing the Christian theory of God. I'm told he is perfect and omnipotent. My personal beliefs about what perfection is imply God is righteous, fair, honest, kind, all the good things...and then someone tells me all that matters to salvation is faith? Why would a perfect being construct such a system? We're told all the other values matter too, but faith is the only one that determines salvation? I'm not saying I've disproven God or disproven the Christian God. I'm saying that this specific idea of God does not jive with my values, therefore I do not believe in this idea of God. I do not understand this God.
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This reminds me of a Marilyin Manson lyric "I dont hate the one true God, I just hate god of the people who hate me."

He goes on to describe people's god as money. Dont anyone take this as an Christian argument for MM. Just saying.

To huff I can understand this. I feel it's similar to why I say I am faithful rather than religious.

My take on how I am reading your statement is that you are punishing (not the exact word I am looking for) God for other's reactions or explanation.
 
#90
#90
n_huffhines said:
Probation means period of testing. The probation I'm talking about is a test to see if we are worthy to live with God. IDK if/where it might be explicitly written in scripture, but if we live our lives here on earth, then are judged for them, then rewarded or punished, the implication is that the life here on earth was a test, right?
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Maybe since we all have free will . This is where your faith comes in ( my opinion ) to believe in something you cannot know the answers to . It’s like believing your parents when they tell you something and you are too young to understand the answers , you have faith in your parents even if you can’t see the answers yet . Same with God , he’s asking you to believe him when he tells you something .
 
#91
#91
n_huffhines said:
Nobody will answer this question, but if you were God, what kind of probationary system would you set up? Would you base salvation on faith? Why?
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Faith is as good as anything. I like it because it isnt based on anything but itself. No prerequisites, no physical obstical, no mental obstical. We can all be different and still have faith. And I think that faith has to be a living thing. To me I dont see faith as a limiting thing, faith can be just about anything and it doesnt have to be much at all.

If you base it on deeds it becomes a checklist imo. I did my good thing for the hour/day/week. (Personally I think me helping my parents with a tech issue while they also talked with my sister about the same issue should get me in). I believe it's not just about doing a good deed, you can do good for wrong reasons. You can do good just so you check a box. I think God wants us to want to do good. Not that we simply do good.
 
#92
#92
LouderVol said:
This reminds me of a Marilyin Manson lyric "I dont hate the one true God, I just hate god of the people who hate me."

He goes on to describe people's god as money. Dont anyone take this as an Christian argument for MM. Just saying.

To huff I can understand this. I feel it's similar to why I say I am faithful rather than religious.

My take on how I am reading your statement is that you are punishing (not the exact word I am looking for) God for other's reactions or explanation.
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I don't think I have the ability to punish God. I guess you mean like that I'm judging him based on others' beliefs about him, but all I feel that I'm doing is deciding who I think he is (which is what we all do in a sense). I'm judging their version of him, I don't feel like I'm actually judging God.

FWIW, I'm an agnostic deist. I don't believe or disbelieve, but I hope there is a God.

I've never had a problem with "why does God let bad things happen to good people?" Which seems to be one of the most common obstacles for people that want to believe. The other obstacle people seem to have is why are Christians so imperfect, which I never had a problem with that either. Those are easy for me to explain. I do have my obstacles, tho.
 
#93
#93
n_huffhines said:
I don't think I have the ability to punish God. I guess you mean like that I'm judging him based on others' beliefs about him, but all I feel that I'm doing is deciding who I think he is (which is what we all do in a sense). I'm judging their version of him, I don't feel like I'm actually judging God.

FWIW, I'm an agnostic deist. I don't believe or disbelieve, but I hope there is a God.

I've never had a problem with "why does God let bad things happen to good people?" Which seems to be one of the most common obstacles for people that want to believe. The other obstacle people seem to have is why are Christians so imperfect, which I never had a problem with that either. Those are easy for me to explain. I do have my obstacles, tho.
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Judging is a better word. Like I said I couldnt find the appropriate one.

But in a way I think you are punishing him by denying him to some extent. But here is where I struggle with the label agnostic deist. To me that has an implication of not the "Christian God". Maybe just my confirmation bias.

One analogy I use for faith is deciding to enter a house/heaven. God has left the door open to all, it's up to us to decide to come in (faith*). Some people dont make it in. But I dont see it as a limitation by God, but by us instead.
 
#94
#94
n_huffhines said:
Can it what? Can any system be set up? Yes, if God is omnipotent. I don't think I'm assuming God is arbitrary (not sure I would use that word), I am saying if he's omnipotent, then he can be arbitrary. Are you assuming God can't be arbitrary?
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Yes, God being unchanging (immutable) is a fundamental of classic theology. Perfect means complete. What you e described is a contingent being and this NOT perfect.
 
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#95
#95
n_huffhines said:
Probation means period of testing. The probation I'm talking about is a test to see if we are worthy to live with God. IDK if/where it might be explicitly written in scripture, but if we live our lives here on earth, then are judged for them, then rewarded or punished, the implication is that the life here on earth was a test, right?
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You aren’t worthy. No one is.
 
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#96
#96
n_huffhines said:
Why so salty? My position is totally up for critique and I genuinely engaged you, but you didn't answer my questions and you ascribed me positions and ideas, then went on rants about those positions. Forgive me for failing to continue this disingenuous conversation.
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Salty? You made a bald assertion. I offered you a chance to support your strawman accusation. You haven’t. Instead you accuse me of rants. I’m sorry, who’s being disingenuous?
if you’re genuine you’ll show me where I’ve committed a strawman. I haven’t avoided any question. I told you in plain words why I didn’t answer the question about if God is this then why......
In fact I circled back around and explained again. Then Crush explained it again from his perspective.
 
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#97
#97
0nelilreb said:
No it’s not a probation to try to get to a different place ( my opinion ) god made man and he saw it was good . After the creation he gave us everything we needed including a mate for us to be happy . I don’t recall anywhere that I’ve read he made us so we could be on probation.

Edit : your question of what is the point is really you asking “ what’s the meaning of life “
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If you read his OP he is a former Mormon. That is consistent with Mormon theology. This worlds a test for the next. I think what may be missed is that Huff is assuming that these ideas or Mormon theology is universally accepted. That is why I said he might be throwing out the baby with the bath water. I’m good with rejecting Mormon theology. What I’m not good with is lacing questions with that same wrong theology and then acting like we owe him an answer.
 
#98
#98
LouderVol said:
Judging is a better word. Like I said I couldnt find the appropriate one.

But in a way I think you are punishing him by denying him to some extent. But here is where I struggle with the label agnostic deist. To me that has an implication of not the "Christian God". Maybe just my confirmation bias.

One analogy I use for faith is deciding to enter a house/heaven. God has left the door open to all, it's up to us to decide to come in (faith*). Some people dont make it in. But I dont see it as a limitation by God, but by us instead.
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Ehhh, it could be the Christian God meaning the creator of Adam and Eve whose son died for our sins, but if you are somebody who defines the Christian God as one who awards salvation solely based on faith/grace, then I personally would say "not the Christian God" to you.
 
#100
#100
Roustabout said:
Salty? You made a bald assertion. I offered you a chance to support your strawman accusation. You haven’t. Instead you accuse me of rants. I’m sorry, who’s being disingenuous?
if you’re genuine you’ll show me where I’ve committed a strawman. I haven’t avoided any question. I told you in plain words why I didn’t answer the question about if God is this then why......
In fact I circled back around and explained again. Then Crush explained it again from his perspective.
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You defined "good" for me narrowly as "nice", then went off for like 6 paragraphs over 2 posts about how stupid it is to narrowly define "good" as "nice".

Do you know what a straw man is? It's so clear what the straw man was, I didn't feel compelled to explain it. I'll be sure to point it out explicitly the next time you "offer" me a chance to support my accusations.
 
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