Deconstruction - religion and politics

[Roustabout]

I'm confident I wouldn't create and allow the continued existence of a world in which any (much less the majority) of my children would live and die only to find eternal damnation.

We’re all sure infinite power would be safe in your hands. Hell, reading the Watchmen comics provides more theological insight than you.

 

[Roustabout]

The answer can be "just because". I'm not saying that's not the answer. I'm saying that's an arbitrary reason and OC is saying that it is not arbitrary. That's where we're stuck

I hope you realize the mountain of theology on this subject. You’re going to get some good answers here and some not so good. The fact remains is that you’ve been shown enough form Crush and myself to think that maybe you need to to more listening than talking.

 

[luthervol]

you wouldn't let your children self determinate?
That's some Annie Wilkes type love right there.

I wouldn't create and allow the continued existence of a system in which any (much less the majority) of my children would live and die only to find eternal damnation.

I have 3 children, living with the knowledge that any of them faced eternal damnation is beyond my comprehension.
To actually be responsible for creating that system is unfathomable.

I'm all about free will and self determination and have instilled both in my children. I "created" and "maintained" an environment where they could learn these lessons and find a happy and productive life as a result.
If my kids ended up being murderers and rapists and drug addicts, I would feel I failed as a parent.....and I would certainly stop having kids.

 

[LouderVol]

The answer can be "just because". I'm not saying that's not the answer. I'm saying that's an arbitrary reason and OC is saying that it is not arbitrary. That's where we're stuck

I hesitate to use any of my limited knowledge of the sciences here, because I am sure other people know more and better. but at some point a chemical reaction happens "just because". You mix two elements and a imbalance of ions will lead to chemical reactions. the ions are that way because of their electrons. their electrons are that way because of pairing and orbit. the orbit and pairing happen because of balance. why the balance? again someone here probably knows and can correct what I said. but even if you take it a couple steps down to the quantum level, its just because.

this also falls short because its "just because" for now, until we have a better understanding of the subject. in the case of God you have limited your experience/learning of him, so you come across just because a little sooner than others. Not saying I, or anyone, has a better final answer than "just because", but I have no problem accepting that with God when I do the same with things beyond my comprehension.

the Golden Rule, which it sounds like you subscribe to, boils down to just because. or in actuality, it boils down to selfishness. I do this so that someone else will do this to/for me. but why? Karma, destiny, cosmic balance? Or at some point is it just because? its right? why? just because you have a selfish belief that it comes back around, potentially? Right is right? but God can't be God? and he can't be, because its an arbitrary explanation, just like right is right because it serves my purpose?

 

[0nelilreb]

I wouldn't create and allow the continued existence of a system in which any (much less the majority) of my children would live and die only to find eternal damnation.

I have 3 children, living with the knowledge that any of them faced eternal damnation is beyond my comprehension.
To actually be responsible for creating that system is unfathomable.

I'm all about free will and self determination and have instilled both in my children. I "created" and "maintained" an environment where they could learn these lessons and find a happy and productive life as a result.
If my kids ended up being murderers and rapists and drug addicts, I would feel I failed as a parent.....and I would certainly stop having kids.

Thank goodness Adam and Eve didn’t think the way you do. Free will is free will , even the best parents can only do what’s right , the rest is up to the child to make the right choices .

 

[LouderVol]

I wouldn't create and allow the continued existence of a system in which any (much less the majority) of my children would live and die only to find eternal damnation.

I have 3 children, living with the knowledge that any of them faced eternal damnation is beyond my comprehension.
To actually be responsible for creating that system is unfathomable.

I'm all about free will and self determination and have instilled both in my children. I "created" and "maintained" an environment where they could learn these lessons and find a happy and productive life as a result.
If my kids ended up being murderers and rapists and drug addicts, I would feel I failed as a parent.....and I would certainly stop having kids.

if you lost a child in birth, would you stop because of the previous suffering and loss? God's potential for love is endless. Some say God is love, and if God is omnieverything, that means love is. Love, at least at the human level, isn't based on life choices. God still loves, even when we murder, rape, and etc. its up to us to seek forgiveness.

God welcomes home the prodigal son. I think in your situation you would welcome home one of your kids if they had turned things around.

God gives all of us, those before, now, and after, the same chance. God doesn't condemn the city for 100 innocents, 50, 10, 5, 2, 1 innocent. why would he condemn all innocents for crimes they hadn't committed?

 

[luthervol]

We’re all sure infinite power would be safe in your hands. Hell, reading the Watchmen comics provides more theological insight than you.

lol.....You embody the distinction between knowledge and understanding.
You would have made a swell Pharisee.

 

[luthervol]

Thank goodness Adam and Eve didn’t think the way you do. Free will is free will , even the best parents can only do what’s right , the rest is up to the child to make the right choices .

LOL....What is right for a parent is to do all within their power to insure that their children have the tools, skills, and wisdom to succeed in life. If more than half of their children end up as rapists and murderers, I would say they failed as parents.

Do you believe there is eternal damnation?
What percent of the humans who have lived and died to you think "earned" that end? (ball park figure, your gut instinct)
If it's 90%, do you think it's a worthy system?
How about 50%?
How about 10%?
How much eternal human suffering is allowed while still justifying this grand experiment?

 

[n_huffhines]

I hesitate to use any of my limited knowledge of the sciences here, because I am sure other people know more and better. but at some point a chemical reaction happens "just because". You mix two elements and a imbalance of ions will lead to chemical reactions. the ions are that way because of their electrons. their electrons are that way because of pairing and orbit. the orbit and pairing happen because of balance. why the balance? again someone here probably knows and can correct what I said. but even if you take it a couple steps down to the quantum level, its just because.

this also falls short because its "just because" for now, until we have a better understanding of the subject. in the case of God you have limited your experience/learning of him, so you come across just because a little sooner than others. Not saying I, or anyone, has a better final answer than "just because", but I have no problem accepting that with God when I do the same with things beyond my comprehension.

the Golden Rule, which it sounds like you subscribe to, boils down to just because. or in actuality, it boils down to selfishness. I do this so that someone else will do this to/for me. but why? Karma, destiny, cosmic balance? Or at some point is it just because? its right? why? just because you have a selfish belief that it comes back around, potentially? Right is right? but God can't be God? and he can't be, because its an arbitrary explanation, just like right is right because it serves my purpose?

You lost me with the golden rule example. I can give many reasons why we should follow the golden rule. I'll eventually say "just because", but if I can give you 20 reasons for X, and we can't find any reasons for Y, I don't see the value in the comparison. Equally, I can give reasons why I think God might be merciful, kind, fair, etc. and ultimately I'll say "just because", but I'm starting at "he's that way because it's the best way to be". I can't explain why it's the best way to be, it just is.

I do agree that it's generally in our best interest to follow the golden rule, whether or not we care about the morality of adherence.

So here's a thought...I know a lot of Christians have a problem with the big bang theory because of the implication that this is all an accident of nature and doesn't have a higher reason/purpose for existing...if God just is and isn't what he is for a specific reason, that would ultimately mean we don't really have a reason. We exist because that's what God does, and there is no reason.

 

[0nelilreb]

LOL....What is right for a parent is to do all within their power to insure that their children have the tools, skills, and wisdom to succeed in life. If more than half of their children end up as rapists and murderers, I would say they failed as parents.

Do you believe there is eternal damnation?
What percent of the humans who have lived and died to you think "earned" that end? (ball park figure, your gut instinct)
If it's 90%, do you think it's a worthy system?
How about 50%?
How about 10%?
How much eternal human suffering is allowed while still justifying this grand experiment?

Yes I do , do I know what that is or what it means , no I don’t . My best guess is away from the presence of God . Did your parents conduct a grand experiment with you ? Or did they create you out of love and tried to give you what you needed to make good and wise decisions for yourself ? Again , free will is the ability to chose for yourself between right and wrong by the rules handed down from God . God made Lucifer , he never right from wrong and still chose to be above God, the price for that was being cast out of heaven . It’s interesting to watch you say that it won’t be the child’s fault if they choose wrong but the parents . Very interesting indeed .

 

[Roustabout]

lol.....You embody the distinction between knowledge and understanding.
You would have made a swell Pharisee.

Coming from you, that’s a compliment.

 

[Orange_Crush]

The answer can be "just because". I'm not saying that's not the answer. I'm saying that's an arbitrary reason and OC is saying that it is not arbitrary. That's where we're stuck

You are determined to quibble because for some reason you feel compelled to apply the description of an effect on that which is not an effect.

Like I said, the big ticket answers have been given whether you've cared to pay attention to them or not. Why did He Make it about Faith as opposed to our action? Because if any of us were judged on what we do, there would be no hope for us. Thus, He made our about accepting His grace.

 

[Roustabout]

I wouldn't create and allow the continued existence of a system in which any (much less the majority) of my children would live and die only to find eternal damnation.

I have 3 children, living with the knowledge that any of them faced eternal damnation is beyond my comprehension.
To actually be responsible for creating that system is unfathomable.

I'm all about free will and self determination and have instilled both in my children. I "created" and "maintained" an environment where they could learn these lessons and find a happy and productive life as a result.
If my kids ended up being murderers and rapists and drug addicts, I would feel I failed as a parent.....and I would certainly stop having kids.

Where do you get the idea that humans are Gods children?

 

[Orange_Crush]

You lost me with the golden rule example. I can give many reasons why we should follow the golden rule. I'll eventually say "just because", but if I can give you 20 reasons for X, and we can't find any reasons for Y, I don't see the value in the comparison.

I do agree that it's generally in our best interest to follow the golden rule, whether or not we care about the morality of adherence.

So here's a thought...I know a lot of Christians have a problem with the big bang theory because of the implication that this is all an accident of nature and doesn't have a higher reason/purpose for existing...if God just is and isn't what he is for a specific reason, that would ultimately mean we don't really have a reason. We exist because that's what God does, and there is no reason.

We exist because God decided to create us in His image for purpose. He did not have to do that. He did not need to do that. He was fully self fulfilled without doing it. But it was completely within His nature to have done it.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Where do you get the idea that humans are Gods children?

To those who reject him, he said he had no relationship with them, so casts them into outer darkness. Through John, he said that only after accepting Him by faith, we are given the right to be called his children.

Seems to me, those of us that are His kids are adopted by His grace and mercy.

 

[LouderVol]

You lost me with the golden rule example. I can give many reasons why we should follow the golden rule. I'll eventually say "just because", but if I can give you 20 reasons for X, and we can't find any reasons for Y, I don't see the value in the comparison.

I do agree that it's generally in our best interest to follow the golden rule, whether or not we care about the morality of adherence.

So here's a thought...I know a lot of Christians have a problem with the big bang theory because of the implication that this is all an accident of nature and doesn't have a higher reason/purpose for existing...if God just is and isn't what he is for a specific reason, that would ultimately mean we don't really have a reason. We exist because that's what God does, and there is no reason.

not going to bother me with the Big Bang or any non biblical creation story. I have no problem believing God acted thru explainable science vs space magic.

people here, and probably elsewhere in your life, have given you the 20 reasons for God, and you can't know see a reason beyond, so its "just because". we skipped a lot of steps in this conversation about "why God", which is why i am assuming you have had previous reasons explained.

ultimately I don't think anyone here is going to give you a better final answer than just because, I would love to be proven wrong. I guess my stance is that "just because" is not a bad answer for God.

 

[n_huffhines]

Where do you get the idea that humans are Gods children?

Is this a trick question? If we're talking Christian theology, I would say that it's generally implied throughout the scriptures, but the first thing that comes to mind is that Jesus teaches us to pray to our "Father".

 

[n_huffhines]

not going to bother me with the Big Bang or any non biblical creation story. I have no problem believing God acted thru explainable science vs space magic.

people here, and probably elsewhere in your life, have given you the 20 reasons for God, and you can't know see a reason beyond, so its "just because". we skipped a lot of steps in this conversation about "why God", which is why i am assuming you have had previous reasons explained.

ultimately I don't think anyone here is going to give you a better final answer than just because, I would love to be proven wrong. I guess my stance is that "just because" is not a bad answer for God.

Was not my intent at all.

 

[Orange_Crush]

not going to bother me with the Big Bang or any non biblical creation story. I have no problem believing God acted thru explainable science vs space magic.

people here, and probably elsewhere in your life, have given you the 20 reasons for God, and you can't know see a reason beyond, so its "just because". we skipped a lot of steps in this conversation about "why God", which is why i am assuming you have had previous reasons explained.

ultimately I don't think anyone here is going to give you a better final answer than just because, I would love to be proven wrong. I guess my stance is that "just because" is not a bad answer for God.

It is an insufficient answer because God is not a "because". He is the ever-existed source. Not a "because".

 

[Roustabout]

Is this a trick question? If we're talking Christian theology, I would say that it's generally implied throughout the scriptures, but the first thing that comes to mind is that Jesus teaches us to pray to our "Father".

No, it’s not. Believers are referred to as God’s children. Humans in general, are not.

 

[Roustabout]

To those who reject him, he said he had no relationship with them, so casts them into outer darkness. Through John, he said that only after accepting Him by faith, we are given the right to be called his children.

Seems to me, those of us that are His kids are adopted by His grace and mercy.

Yup!!

 

[LouderVol]

Was not my intent at all.

oh I know. just saying and open mind is not only found on one side here.

 

[luthervol]

Yes I do , do I know what that is or what it means , no I don’t . My best guess is away from the presence of God . Did your parents conduct a grand experiment with you ? Or did they create you out of love and tried to give you what you needed to make good and wise decisions for yourself ? Again , free will is the ability to chose for yourself between right and wrong by the rules handed down from God . God made Lucifer , he never right from wrong and still chose to be above God, the price for that was being cast out of heaven . It’s interesting to watch you say that it won’t be the child’s fault if they choose wrong but the parents . Very interesting indeed .

I never said it wasn't the child's fault. It's sort of like a football game. Is a loss the players' or the coach's fault. Sometimes it's more on the coach, sometimes it's more on the players, but it's always a shared blame. If a coach continues to lose, questions start to rise.
My parents created me out of love and provided me with all they could to ensure my success. (I and both of my brothers have been very successful) What my parents would have never done is knowingly allow a system to exist that would have condemned any of us to eternal damnation.

 

[LouderVol]

It is an insufficient answer because God is not a "because". He is the ever-existed source. Not a "because".

your jumping straight to quantum level physics. there are a couple steps between where I think Huff is and where you are posting. you are jumping straight into a discussion appropriate for those who want to discuss more, not to come to a basic understanding.

no offense to Huff but I don't think you can treat this like a conversation with the learned. but instead a child or new believer, unfamiliar with God.

 

[LouderVol]

I never said it wasn't the child's fault. It's sort of like a football game. Is a loss the players' or the coach's fault. Sometimes it's more on the coach, sometimes it's more on the players, but it's always a shared blame. If a coach continues to lose, questions start to rise.
My parents created me out of love and provided me with all they could to ensure my success. (I and both of my brothers have been very successful) What my parents would have never done is knowingly allow a system to exist that would have condemned any of us to eternal damnation.

they let the US government (or get to a point where it could happen) elect Trump. based on your posting thats a close you are going to get in this life.