Don't criticize Islam.

[therealUT]

A gallup poll from a few years ago (I have since lost the link) states that around 20% of Turkish Muslims believe suicide terrorism is justifiable at least some of the time in defense of Islam. This is Turkey, one of the more democratic and developed Muslim country's. The numbers for Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Egypt were disgusting (upwards of 80% in some cases).

This statement, and said polls, in no way prove that Islam is, in any manner, more violent, fundamentally, than any of the other major world religions.

I guarantee that if you polled the Catholics in Rwanda, circa 1996, the same questions, you would see upwards of 80% saying that they believe suicide terrorism is justifiable "in at least some of the time in defense of..."

 

[rjd970]

I guarantee that if you polled the Catholics in Rwanda, circa 1996, the same questions, you would see upwards of 80% saying that they believe suicide terrorism is justifiable "in at least some of the time in defense of..."

I seriously doubt this hypothetical, at least about suicide terrorism. And even if it is true, it is laughable to compare Rwandan Catholics with the sheer number Muslim fanatics that hold "mainstream" Islamic beliefs. The theology of Christianity and Islam aren't even close. Sure the Bible has some passages that could be used to justify genocide, but the Qu'ran doesn't have a "Sermon on the Mount" equivalent to temper things.

We agree to disagree though.

 

[gsvol]

Feel free to read up on the political history of Judaism, too. Last time I checked, the Hebrews most definitely wiped out whole states in Judea, to include women and children. The magnitude matters not. It is the principle and one cannot argue that the principles expressed in the Torah and early history of Judaism are materially distinct from those expressed and observed in the early stages of Islam.

If the Hebrews had actually carried through their mandate to eliminate all the inhabitants of their 'promised land' then they probably wouldn't have run into many of the problems they did later on, but they didn't do that.

Judea and the whole world are two completely different things and as for 'early stage' Islam and recent Islam, there isn't that much difference.

One excellent example; Sudan from about 1970 to 1990, the Arabic Muslims exterminated about 2 million black Africans in southern Sudan, they only converted those they took north as slaves. Then when a peace deal was worked out so that those people would have some degree of self rule in the region, the Muslims resorted to assassination (another of their political weapons) of the southern leader.

So how many of those were killed because of imperialism rather than religious beliefs? I be willing to bet leaders who were of Christian faith killed at least that many.

You have a bet, I'll be interested in reviewing your research.

Probably the best example of that of which you speak would be the Spanish (and to a lesser extent the Portuguese) in the western hemisphere but remember, those people had suffered under the boot heel (or should I say under the heel of the sandal?) of Muslim invaders for nearly eight hundred years, they learned well by experience.

Then too some of the people the Spanish dealt with were no angels themselves, for instance the Aztec who cut the living hearts out of captured conquistadors on the altars of their own gods.

I seriously doubt this hypothetical, at least about suicide terrorism. And even if it is true, it is laughable to compare Rwandan Catholics with the sheer number Muslim fanatics that hold "mainstream" Islamic beliefs. The theology of Christianity and Islam aren't even close. Sure the Bible has some passages that could be used to justify genocide, but the Qu'ran doesn't have a "Sermon on the Mount" equivalent to temper things.

We agree to disagree though.

I have to go along with you there rjd, realut is just absolutely wrong with his hypothetical scenario in this instance.

 

[therealUT]

If the Hebrews had actually carried through their mandate to eliminate all the inhabitants of their 'promised land' then they probably wouldn't have run into many of the problems they did later on, but they didn't do that.

Judea and the whole world are two completely different things and as for 'early stage' Islam and recent Islam, there isn't that much difference.

Feel free to argue this point until the cows come home, however, without referencing the history of world population, warfare, and transportation for both peoples and both times, then your argument will continue to hold little to no water.

The Hebrew people certainly tried to carry out their mandate, but, were unable to. They attempted to either kill or subject all the peoples of Judea. The Bible specifically states that they were unable to carry out such a task against a large portion of Canaanites, as well as the Jebusites that lived in Jerusalem.

The violent spread of Hebrews throughout Judea was a task mainly accomplished by foot to cities and states connected via the trade routes of the time.

The violent spread of Muslims throughout the Middle East, Northern Africa, and Southwest Asia was a task mainly accomplished by horseback to cities and states connected via the trade routes of the time.

Had the Hebrews not been conquered by a far superior, militarily speaking, Rome, then I have no doubts that they would have continued to lay claim, by use of the sword, to the cities and states of the known world in which they could effectively establish their dominance.

 

[gsvol]

Feel free to argue this point until the cows come home, however, without referencing the history of world population, warfare, and transportation for both peoples and both times, then your argument will continue to hold little to no water.

The Hebrew people certainly tried to carry out their mandate, but, were unable to. They attempted to either kill or subject all the peoples of Judea. The Bible specifically states that they were unable to carry out such a task against a large portion of Canaanites, as well as the Jebusites that lived in Jerusalem.

The violent spread of Hebrews throughout Judea was a task mainly accomplished by foot to cities and states connected via the trade routes of the time.

The violent spread of Muslims throughout the Middle East, Northern Africa, and Southwest Asia was a task mainly accomplished by horseback to cities and states connected via the trade routes of the time.

Had the Hebrews not been conquered by a far superior, militarily speaking, Rome, then I have no doubts that they would have continued to lay claim, by use of the sword, to the cities and states of the known world in which they could effectively establish their dominance.

You do an excellent hop scotch through history to try to draw such conclusions.

Then you end your version of history omitting the advent of car bombs and plane highjackings.

 

[therealUT]

Then you end your version of history omitting the advent of car bombs and plane highjackings.

When you can tell me what car bombs and planes have to do with the Koran, then I will begin including them in said discussion.

 

[rjd970]

When you can tell me what car bombs and planes have to do with the Koran, then I will begin including them in said discussion.

This is a small taste, only what I could find with a quick google search. Read the Hadith and it gets even worse:

Quran: 9:111 - Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an.

Quran-4:74 - Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory (i.e. killed or be killed) - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

Quran 4:95 - Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons (sacrifice both life and wealth) than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.

Quran 3:169 - Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;

 

[gsvol]

When you can tell me what car bombs and planes have to do with the Koran, then I will begin including them in said discussion.

The vast majority of all terrorist acts over the last half century can be traced directly to fundamentalist Islamic groups who use the Koran as their basic guide book.

Did that do the trick??

 

[IPorange]

The vast majority of all terrorist acts over the last half century can be traced directly to fundamentalist Islamic groups who use the Koran as their basic guide book.

Did that do the trick??

I don't think that is completely fair to say. The "vast" part, anyway. What about Latin American revolutionaries? The IRA?

 

[therealUT]

This is a small taste, only what I could find with a quick google search. Read the Hadith and it gets even worse:

Quran: 9:111 - Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an.

Quran-4:74 - Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory (i.e. killed or be killed) - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

Quran 4:95 - Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons (sacrifice both life and wealth) than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.

Quran 3:169 - Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;

This in no way proves your point. It simply proves that martyrdom is valued in the Koran. Martyrdom is also valued in the Torah, in the rest of the Old Testament, and in the New Testament.

You do understand that among Christian communities there is a widespread belief that those who die for the sake of Christ go to Heaven, right? From your posts, one would think that you believe this is valued only amongst Muslims.

 

[therealUT]

Did that do the trick??

No.

 

[gsvol]

This is a small taste, only what I could find with a quick google search. Read the Hadith and it gets even worse:

Quran: 9:111 - Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an.

Quran-4:74 - Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory (i.e. killed or be killed) - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

Quran 4:95 - Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons (sacrifice both life and wealth) than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.

Quran 3:169 - Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;

Kudos rjd!!!

(Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."


(Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

(Koran 69:30-37) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

(Koran 5: 33-34) "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is forgiving, merciful."

(Koran 22: 19-22) "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."

(Koran 76: 4) "Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers chains, yokes and a blazing fire."

As the Koran is supposed to be timeless and universal, the verses in it hold true even today and are used everyday by pious Muslims to justify their brutal and terrorist activities.

 

[therealUT]

Kudos rjd!!!

(Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."


(Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

(Koran 69:30-37) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

(Koran 5: 33-34) "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is forgiving, merciful."

(Koran 22: 19-22) "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."

(Koran 76: 4) "Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers chains, yokes and a blazing fire."

As the Koran is supposed to be timeless and universal, the verses in it hold true even today and are used everyday by pious Muslims to justify their brutal and terrorist activities.

You two can quote the Koran until the end of time. I really don't feel like wasting my time by quoting Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Numbers, Joshua, or Kings right now.

I will say this, though: if you continue to believe that these maxims are only expressed in the Koran, and not the Bible, then the both of you are sorely misguided, easily sold, and extremely ignorant.

 

[rjd970]

I can't believe you have me on here defending Christianity. As much as I think Christianity is bad, it is not in the same league of ridiculousness as that of Islam.

This in no way proves your point. It simply proves that martyrdom is valued in the Koran. Martyrdom is also valued in the Torah, in the rest of the Old Testament, and in the New Testament.

You do understand that among Christian communities there is a widespread belief that those who die for the sake of Christ go to Heaven, right? From your posts, one would think that you believe this is valued only amongst Muslims.

Here is the difference: Christians have the New Testament to offset some of this. The Old Testament is viewed by the Jews as a religious and historical document giving an account of their people with God.

Muslims have the Hadith and Qu'ran, both of which are viewed as rule books for how to live one's life and as truth to what happens in the afterlife given the circumstances surrounding one's death. There are actually some parts of the ME where a complete education consists of simply memorizing the Qu'ran. It is considered the constitution in Saudi Arabia. It is more than just a religious documents detailing the relationship between a people and their God, this is an all encompassing document to them.

The only academically honest way one can compare Christians, Jews, and Muslims is to say they all trace back to Abraham. After that, they are three completely different belief systems.

 

[KB5252]

You two can quote the Koran until the end of time. I really don't feel like wasting my time by quoting Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Numbers, Joshua, or Kings right now.

I will say this, though: if you continue to believe that these maxims are only expressed in the Koran, and not the Bible, then the both of you are sorely misguided, easily sold, and extremely ignorant.

The religion of Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ and the New Testament, the old testament is there for historical reference as much as anything. While there are some things that could be considered violent there are no commandments to go out and destroy those who don't believe as you do, quite the opposite actually.

 

[therealUT]

Here is the difference: Christians have the New Testament to offset some of this. The Old Testament is viewed by the Jews as a religious and historical document giving an account of their people with God.

The New Testament does not wholly offset the Old Testament. Considering the fact that the New Testament ends with a story depicting an apocalyptic situation in which the forces of good (believers) wage war against the forces of evil (infidels), I would have to say your point is moot.

Muslims have the Hadith and Qu'ran, both of which are viewed as rule books for how to live one's life and as truth to what happens in the afterlife given the circumstances surrounding one's death. There are actually some parts of the ME where a complete education consists of simply memorizing the Qu'ran. It is considered the constitution in Saudi Arabia. It is more than just a religious documents detailing the relationship between a people and their God, this is an all encompassing document to them.

I think I was called out for omitting car bombs and hijacked planes (by gsvol, I believe), albeit erroneously as his statement was not relevant to the discussion. I am going to have to call you out on omitting the history of Christendom (which, in my opinion, is completely relevant to this discussion).

The foundations of these religions are not based upon violence. Do all of these religions see the need for violence in certain situations? Certainly. Have all of these religions been exploited by certain peoples to achieve ulterior motives through "righteous violence"? Yes. Those exploitations should reflect on those who are doing the exploiting, not on the religions.

 

[therealUT]

The religion of Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ and the New Testament, the old testament is there for historical reference as much as anything. While there are some things that could be considered violent there are no commandments to go out and destroy those who don't believe as you do, quite the opposite actually.

Jesus would beg to differ...

Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished.

 

[KB5252]

Jesus would beg to differ...


[/FONT]
[/FONT]

I do not see how that is inciting Christians to kill those who do not believe.

Jesus taught us the way to heaven. He was the new deal, so to speak, that God gave us. His teachings and life were showing us the path to heaven. What he taught us was much different than the eye for an eye from the books of the Old Testament. All you have posted there is a quote that tells us the Bible would stay one document, bridging the old way and the new.

 

[Lexvol]

Why in the Hell are the Ten Commandments so important to evangelicals then? Is the ACLU right?

 

[KB5252]

Why in the Hell are the Ten Commandments so important to evangelicals then? Is the ACLU right?

Because it is good law? So many are common sense.

 

[gsvol]

No.

If you want to pull your head out, that is entirely up to you, don't look to me, it isn't up to me to make you see the light.

Your assertion that Rwandan Catholics (who endured great slaughter) would sanction suicide bombing, relegates any of your other claims to footnote status in the discussion. (too absurd for words.)

BTW, Obama has called off the search for Osama!!

 

[therealUT]

I do not see how that is inciting Christians to kill those who do not believe.

Jesus taught us the way to heaven. He was the new deal, so to speak, that God gave us. His teachings and life were showing us the path to heaven. What he taught us was much different than the eye for an eye from the books of the Old Testament. All you have posted there is a quote that tells us the Bible would stay one document, bridging the old way and the new.

First, I have posted one, out of numerous, statements by Jesus confirming the Law of Moses (not the Bible, since the Bible did not exist at such time).

Second, I am in no way trying to say that Christians should kill non-believers. Jews should not kill non-believers. Muslims should not kill non-believers.

The fact is that any Christian, Jew, or Muslim cankill an infidel and find plenty of scripture (in their respective Holy Texts) to justify their actions. The fault lies with the killer, not the religion nor the religious text.

 

[gsvol]

Why in the Hell are the Ten Commandments so important to evangelicals then? Is the ACLU right?

I don't know how important the ten commandments are to the 'evangelicals' (whoever they are) but to answer the second part of your question; "Hell no the ACLU ain't right??"

 

[rjd970]

I think I was called out for omitting car bombs and hijacked planes (by gsvol, I believe), albeit erroneously as his statement was not relevant to the discussion. I am going to have to call you out on omitting the history of Christendom (which, in my opinion, is completely relevant to this discussion).

This is actually a good point. I see many parallels between present day muslims and 14th cenury christians. No doubt christians have much to answer for with witch hunts, inquisitions, crusades, conquistadors, etc. And Jesus wasn't as benign as many give him credit for. But there is a reason Islam has always been the way it is and never really changed since the 7th century. It's central beliefs simply don't allow for it. There are real and fundamental differences between different faiths, and Islam celebrates martyrdom more so than any other.

What, after all, is less likely than large numbers of middle class, educated, psychologically healthy people intentionally blowing themselves up....in crowds of children, in front of the offices of the Red Cross, at weddings...and having their mothers sing their praises for it? Can you conceive of a bigger misuse of human life? As a cultural phenomenon, suicide bombing should be impossible. But here it is, and we have to wonder why one group of believers is more prone to it than any other. Social injustices happen all over the world, ME muslims are the ones using suicide terrorism as a primary weapon.

 

[KB5252]

First, I have posted one, out of numerous, statements by Jesus confirming the Law of Moses (not the Bible, since the Bible did not exist at such time).

Second, I am in no way trying to say that Christians should kill non-believers. Jews should not kill non-believers. Muslims should not kill non-believers.

The fact is that any Christian, Jew, or Muslim cankill an infidel and find plenty of scripture (in their respective Holy Texts) to justify their actions. The fault lies with the killer, not the religion nor the religious text.

I understand what you are saying but when there are so many muslims throughout the world blowing themselves up, killing those they believe do not follow strict law to the letter, while their brothers in faith watch idly, i find it hard to believe the religion itself is not to blame. There is no other religious group responsible for this kind of violence on earth at this time and on such a wide scale. They hurt and kill people virtually everywhere they exist.