Educate me

[DooleyOrangePants]

No desire to give their all for Tennessee today,no fight. Apparently all soft. #7 for misery had more fight and desire to win, than our entire team

That’s what I’m seeing when I’m watching, either from Neyland or from my house. It’s almost a pedestrian, another day at the office approach. You don’t see the fire that we saw last year, or the rallying of the troops. Just guys going about their business in a ho-hum manner.

Question for me is how do we fix that? I think it’s likely beyond fixable for the current team. But going forward, how do you keep that mindset from setting into the team? Is it a leadership issue at the top? Or do we just not have the guys with the makeup to be able to lead on the field?

 

[Butch s]

That’s what I’m seeing when I’m watching, either from Neyland or from my house. It’s almost a pedestrian, another day at the office approach. You don’t see the fire that we saw last year, or the rallying of the troops. Just guys going about their business in a ho-hum manner.

Question for me is how do we fix that? I think it’s likely beyond fixable for the current team. But going forward, how do you keep that mindset from setting into the team? Is it a leadership issue at the top? Or do we just not have the guys with the makeup to be able to lead on the field?

Honestly it seems most of the problems are from the seniors, which are ole cornbreads kids. Just my take

 

[Butch s]

That’s what I’m seeing when I’m watching, either from Neyland or from my house. It’s almost a pedestrian, another day at the office approach. You don’t see the fire that we saw last year, or the rallying of the troops. Just guys going about their business in a ho-hum manner.

Question for me is how do we fix that? I think it’s likely beyond fixable for the current team. But going forward, how do you keep that mindset from setting into the team? Is it a leadership issue at the top? Or do we just not have the guys with the makeup to be able to lead on the field?

Fixing the problem lies directly on the head coach, if he can’t correct it, then he’s not the right man for the job. Unless 7-5 /8-4 maybe 9/3 is acceptable to all

 

[DooleyOrangePants]

Fixing the problem lies directly on the head coach, if he can’t correct it, then he’s not the right man for the job. Unless 7-5 /8-4 maybe 9/3 is acceptable to all

I completely agree - at the end of the day, it should all be owned by the coach. "The buck stops here".

I do think it's a little more complicated than just a final season record indicates - you can have a team of absolute ballers, working hard and making things happen and still come up short - especially in a rebuild or a case where you have some upper class graduations or attrition. As long as they are giving the effort, it's hard to pin that entirely on the coach (again, we are just talking about being prepared and having the right mindset - not play calling, adjustments, execution, etc. - that's another discussion). I look at games like Florida, Alabama, and of course, Missouri, as key indicators of their being a disconnect somewhere in the organization. Even in some of the wins, there just wasn't that spark or fire on display. A loss sucks no matter which way you look at it, but I'd rather we lose giving our all than in the manner that we have. Missouri and second half Alabama felt like we were watching the South Carolina game last year play out all over again and there is no excuse for either.

 

[chazman]

Last year they had a a Heisman candidate (until injury) at QB. This year they do not.

Last year they had a couple WRs (one missed most of year) that are now in the NFL. Since McCoy injury, they do not at this point have an NFL level WR.

They have had a make shift OL all year missing a future NFL center for the first half of the year. They lost a couple OL now in the NFL.

they are not as talented on the field as the players they put on the field last year. So they are not as efficient and able to execute like CJH would like. He has to call the game based on the skill sets available.

LWS nailed it it is who you have and how much you trust them. You have to play to whatever your teams strength is and adapt a plan that gives them the best chance to win. What our strengths are may change from year to year but the wide scheme is to take defenders out of the box and find our best play for success and the tempo lets us decide if and when the other team can substitute you know until they fake a cramp LOL

 

[Vol865]

And there is the problem, Golesh left and instead of going out and getting an hiring an experienced OC he promotes a staffer to that position, Why ? I think that it is a control issue. Butch went the same route and it was one of the reasons he lost his job. Why not hire the best available ? If Heuple doesn’t get this corrected I give him 2 years max

Most coaches don't have the same offensive philosophy. It would be much better to get someone who has worked with Heupel. Halzle is still new to being an OC and maybe next year he takes over playcalling where Golesh left off. Maybe Heupel notices that the playcalling was part of the problem and is more aggressive next year. That's what I hope happens.

 

[JRich]

Primarily because of Joe Milton's limited ability to make plays.

 

[JRich]

I think Joe has performed better with aggressive play calling at a faster tempo.

Watch the second half of the Missouri and Alabama games again.

He failed to make first downs when they go up tempo. Many wildly inaccurate passes. The bomb that Thornton broke his ankle making the catch on was on 3rd and 10 or so. Risky decision, he was covered.

 

[hUTch2002]

Last year they had a a Heisman candidate (until injury) at QB. This year they do not.

Last year they had a couple WRs (one missed most of year) that are now in the NFL. Since McCoy injury, they do not at this point have an NFL level WR.

They have had a make shift OL all year missing a future NFL center for the first half of the year. They lost a couple OL now in the NFL.

they are not as talented on the field as the players they put on the field last year. So they are not as efficient and able to execute like CJH would like. He has to call the game based on the skill sets available.

All that makes sense. The one thing that doesn’t to me is why we went back to shotgun on short yardage. We ran short yardage from shotgun in Heupel’s first year and sucked. Last year we went under center and converted at a much higher rate. This year we’re back to shotgun and our conversion rate is down again. Maybe Joe just can’t take snaps under center consistently? I don’t know what it is but we need to go back to under center next year.

 

[GAVol]

Watch the second half of the Missouri and Alabama games again.

He failed to make first downs when they go up tempo. Many wildly inaccurate passes. The bomb that Thornton broke his ankle making the catch on was on 3rd and 10 or so. Risky decision, he was covered.

I think that's right. Joe struggles to process the defense from the pocket and going fast just makes it that much worse. The result is that the playbook gets really thin when we try to play with tempo.

 

[Volizona]

We don’t play to punt. It’s just that our vertical passing game is nonexistent. It’s a bunch of screens, slants and comebacks because that’s all they can trust Joe to read. We’re operating with about 25% of the playbook.

Does Joe have to read every single time or can we ever decide we are going to throw it down the field regardless. This was part of my question in the OP. Does Joe have to read the defense for every single play or can he sometimes work off of a script or pre determined play call. Butch used to be obsessed with all of these reads and often it didn’t make any sense.

 

[cgrish]

Last year they had a a Heisman candidate (until injury) at QB. This year they do not.

Last year they had a couple WRs (one missed most of year) that are now in the NFL. Since McCoy injury, they do not at this point have an NFL level WR.

They have had a make shift OL all year missing a future NFL center for the first half of the year. They lost a couple OL now in the NFL.

they are not as talented on the field as the players they put on the field last year. So they are not as efficient and able to execute like CJH would like. He has to call the game based on the skill sets available.

But shouldn't we be getting more talented with Hypes recruits coming in instead of less talented?

 

[Volizona]

I get that Hooker and Co really set the bar super high. However, it would be different if this offense didn’t give us glimpses of what it could be. First drive vs Fla and first half vs bama are prime examples. Those 2 offenses compete with anyone in the country and I think the OP is just wondering where they went.

Yes. This is exactly what I’m asking about. Why can’t we just keep sending in scripted plays like we do for the first series? He seems to handle the scripted plays fine to start games even if the plays are aggressive and include vertical passes. Why do we always have to get so cute with these read plays? Half the time they backfire anyway. Just line up and go for it and try and make the defense stop you.

 

[Volizona]

Do you really need to be told?

QB.

I’m not convinced the QB is the main reason. I think that is an easy way to justify the poor play calling. No doubt this is a contributor but I think there is more to it. Is Heupel one of those coaches who can only work with one offensive strategy / scheme or can he adapt based on his personnel. There has to be a way to be more creative with Joe as the QB.

 

[Volizona]

Lack of trust in personnel..

So what? Why not try to win and aggressively try to get back in games? What do we have to lose - nobody has expected us to come back and win in these games we have fallen behind in anyway. Might as well go down swinging. We kept swinging in 2021 and 2022 in the games we knew we were going to probably lose anyway. Seems luck play calling this year is to get the game over with while trying to minimize damage instead of at least making an effort to get back in the game. I think all of these ‘less talent this year’ excuses are lazy

 

[Volizona]

There is a lot of mention here of what we do NOT have on our offense.

But what we DO have is speed, at least in guys like Wright, Sampson, Seldon, plus RB depth.

Why don't we run more toss sweeps right and left, instead of running right to the linebackers making their jobs easier? Even if other teams figured out our wide game, we'd still be making their D run til their tongues are hangin out, while we can keep rotating fresh backs. Why not?

Exactly. This is the response I have been looking for. Our our coaches not able to adjust and adapt to strengths and weakness or is there only one scheme they try and force upon everyone, much like Butches system.

 

[Caz]

Exactly. This is the response I have been looking for. Our our coaches not able to adjust and adapt to strengths and weakness or is there only one scheme they try and force upon everyone, much like Butches system.

Still don’t know why we can not use Dee on offense some. He’s getting frustrated and will likely hit the portal I’m afraid

 

[GAVol]

Does Joe have to read every single time or can we ever decide we are going to throw it down the field regardless. This was part of my question in the OP. Does Joe have to read the defense for every single play or can he sometimes work off of a script or pre determined play call. Butch used to be obsessed with all of these reads and often it didn’t make any sense.

The first read is just a fact of life. The primary receiver is either open or not and the ball has to come out on time. Joe never has progressed to the point where he anticipates or throws a lot of guys open. His default is still hold it, see it, throw a fastball. That’s why you see all these slants and comebacks and not a lot of combination concepts and vertical throws.

 

[LWSVOL]

But shouldn't we be getting more talented with Hypes recruits coming in instead of less talented?

his recruits lack the experience. they are more talented, just don't have reps yet to add to the talent level. Takes time. None are Bama / Georgia type talents as freshmen so can't expect them to step in and contribute until year 2 or 3. Not many of them anyway.

 

[EastTNVol423]

So what? Why not try to win and aggressively try to get back in games? What do we have to lose - nobody has expected us to come back and win in these games we have fallen behind in anyway. Might as well go down swinging. We kept swinging in 2021 and 2022 in the games we knew we were going to probably lose anyway. Seems luck play calling this year is to get the game over with while trying to minimize damage instead of at least making an effort to get back in the game. I think all of these ‘less talent this year’ excuses are lazy

I think we SHOULD do that. I just gave my opinion on what it looks like to me. I think some of this teams biggest issues are that they are mentally weak and physically soft...

 

[CAVPUT]

I’m far from being an expert on offensive schemes, but I’m curious about the drastic change of play calling this year vs last year. First of all, the offense is CJHs baby. I don’t care who the OC is, CJH is calling plays. Why was he so aggressive last year and never wasted any

Pretty simple. You have talent and speed and it makes you offense and play calling much better and far easier. When you lack those plus don't have talent at QB that can use the entire field, it's kind of a big advantage for the defense and really limits what you can do and call. When UGA rolls out there Saturday, watch their offense. They'll use every tool in the box and attack every level sideline to sideline. We don't have the talent/ability to do that against the better teams in this league(Mizzou) and I doubt we're going to have much success against the best team in THE country Saturday.

 

[GVol1966]

I’m not convinced the QB is the main reason. I think that is an easy way to justify the poor play calling. No doubt this is a contributor but I think there is more to it. Is Heupel one of those coaches who can only work with one offensive strategy / scheme or can he adapt based on his personnel. There has to be a way to be more creative with Joe as the QB.

From his time as OC at Mizzou to UCF to UT .
His offense has scored points, a lot.
He didn’t forget how to call plays during the off-season.
You can only work with what you have.
He’s handicapped this year

 

[TNStudMuffin]

@LWSVOL Nailed it.

There's not a lot of trust in Joe Milton to make the proper reads. For as much talk as there is about how easy Huepel's system can be to pick up, it still requires a quarterback who can quickly read what the defense is in and know where the holes in the zone are going to be or which corners are playing man or if it's entirely man and well covered, knowing when to take off.

This isn't a bash Joe Milton thing though. He's a fine QB. And I'm not entirely convinced that if he didn't receive more trust from Huepel that we wouldn't have a more successful offense. But Huepel watches him in practice every day, Huepel can be 100% certain when watching film who is at fault on bad/broken plays(Milton missing a read or a receiver running the wrong route or whatever else the case might be), where as I nor anyone else not inside the Tennessee film room can.

You combine that with our receivers being kinda just.. guys, I guess. Squirrel is a good player but he's it(with McCoy injured) at the receiver position for guys we can rely on constantly too.

Fine QBs however are generally only going to lead to fine results, which is what I'd overall describe our offense as this year.

I don't think Hooker gets enough credit for how good he was last year. Dude was special. I hope Nico can be too.

I also hope this forum isn't vile towards Milton. He is what he is, and gives 110% each Saturday. And he's going to lead us to a potentially 9 win(counting bowl) season more than likely that we shouldn't be quick to forget the best a previous coaching staff here could do even with studs like Dobbs, Kamara, Jennings, Barnett, Sutton, etc on the team.

Also need to take the time to praise Huepel for how well Milton has developed here. Calling him a "fine QB" is something some might take as an insult, but as I said, it's not, and that's a huge step forward from what Milton was at Michigan.

If Huepel works similar magic on Nico as he did on Hooker and Milton, we're in for something really special at the QB position.

If Milton couldn't cut it, he should have tried to find someone who could.

 

[CAVPUT]

If Milton couldn't cut it, he should have tried to find someone who could.

Based on how Milton looked after Hooker went down and including the Clemson game, who exactly was going to come here for a year given that Nico is the heir apparent next season? You want Heupel to kidnap a QB? I can't blame him for thinking the light had come on for Milton. Heck, almost everyone on this board was talking about him being a top 10 draft choice, super arm and how he was going to torch opposing secondaries. This year was always going to be a challenge for Heupel. Injuries only increased the level of difficulty. Folks better prepare for next season not being as successful even with Nico. We will likely be a lot younger and inexperienced. Combine that with a much more difficult schedule and 7 wins looks to be our ceiling next year. If we kill it in the portal and fill our needs, that would change the perspective, but right now, I'm not sure we pull an FSU and clean up like they did.

 

[UTFranklinVol]

I get that Hooker and Co really set the bar super high. However, it would be different if this offense didn’t give us glimpses of what it could be. First drive vs Fla and first half vs bama are prime examples. Those 2 offenses compete with anyone in the country and I think the OP is just wondering where they went.

This year we have a QB who is very inconsistent, especially downfield. You can't have explosive plays if you can't make consistent throws.

This year our WRs are not as good as last year. That's especially true now that Bru is gone. keyton is fine but drops balls inexplicably.

This year we have a much better running game and have relied heavily on that because we don't have the horses at QB or WR.