Edward Snowden: American Hero

#276
#276
Danl said:
In the scenario it is not a "risk" that the bad guys would win and strip you, if you survive, and your family of their liberty. It is a given.

It is a "risk" in the scenario that your liberty would be further eroded beyond this one "state secret".

Is your answer still fight, die, and sentence your family and everyone else to a life without liberty?
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Why is the one who fights the sentencer? This is akin to blaming a rape victim.
 
#278
#278
therealUT said:
If liberty is compromised it won't be on my account.
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therealUT said:
Why is the one who fights the sentencer? This is akin to blaming a rape victim.
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OK. I think you might just be dancing. But on the chance that you're not....

...let's add to the scenario that you (or Hog) are the benevolent monarch of CA. It is your decision whether to establish and maintain a state secret, thereby preserving most of your citizens' liberty or fight a fight that you know for a fact you and your country will lose, thus losing all of your liberty.

What would you do?
 
#279
#279
Danl said:
OK. I think you might just be dancing. But on the chance that you're not....

...let's add to the scenario that you (or Hog) are the benevolent monarch of CA. It is your decision whether to establish and maintain a state secret, thereby preserving most of your citizens' liberty or fight a fight that you know for a fact you and your country will lose, thus losing all of your liberty.

What would you do?
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Fight. If someone else destroys my liberty and my way of life, that is not on me.

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
 
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#280
#280
And, Danl, since you have decided to play this game, here is one for you. Same basic scenario, except instead of establishing state secrets to keep your liberty and avoid North Korean type oppression, all you have to do is rape an infant. If you don't, everyone is ****ed.

What do you do?
 
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#281
#281
therealUT said:
And, Danl, since you have decided to play this game, here is one for you. Same basic scenario, except instead of establishing state secrets to keep your liberty and avoid North Korean type oppression, all you have to do is rape an infant. If you don't, everyone is ****ed.

What do you do?
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Rape the infant. You have some ludicrous issues with the ideas of absolute liberty and absolute morality.
 
#284
#284
This has personal motives written all over it. Whether it is money, recognition is not clear. But this guy doesn't care about liberty, especially if he is hiding out in China and offering up state secrets.
 
#285
#285
rjd970 said:
This has personal motives written all over it. Whether it is money, recognition is not clear. But this guy doesn't care about liberty, especially if he is hiding out in China and offering up state secrets.
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I don't know. Maybe your right. But to me him tossing a bone to china to stay alive might be his end game. China knows we hack them. Just like we know they hack us.
 
#286
#286
notabed22 said:
Really though, you don't see how crazy it is to fight a losing battle in the name of liberty as opposed to keeping a "state secret" to avoid war and preserve your nation and the vast majority of its liberties?
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I do not. Instead of merely effusing and ejaculating emotive bull ****, however, why don't you attempt to offer reason and argument, according to logic. If not, you can go ahead and scream from the bottom of your taint to the top of your lungs that I am crazy. It bothers me not to be so labeled.
 
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#287
#287
therealUT said:
I do not. Instead of merely effusing and ejaculating emotive bull ****, however, why don't you attempt to offer reason and argument, according to logic. If not, you can go ahead and scream from the bottom of your taint to the top of your lungs that I am crazy. It bothers me not to be so labeled.
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I promise you that, in this scenario, you are completely void of reason and logic.

You are willing to destroy a country in some vain attempt not to compromise your own absolute ideals of liberty knowing full and well that your country and the liberty of those residing in it would be saved by some hypothetical classified information. That is absolutely illogical and unreasonable.
 
#288
#288
therealUT said:
And, Danl, since you have decided to play this game, here is one for you. Same basic scenario, except instead of establishing state secrets to keep your liberty and avoid North Korean type oppression, all you have to do is rape an infant. If you don't, everyone is ****ed.

What do you do?
Click to expand...

No. Your game is a different game. Your game has no plausible basis in reality and you know it.

Decisions whether are not to establish and maintain state secrets as a possible way to preserve a country's interests have been and will continue to be made by folks in many countries around the world on a near-constant basis. My scenario is an attempt, maybe feeble, to reduce the complexities of making such decisions to a level that can be discussed.

Your game is a nonsensical attempt at "Gotcha"!
 
#289
#289
notabed22 said:
I promise you that, in this scenario, you are completely void of reason and logic.

You are willing to destroy a country in some vain attempt not to compromise your own absolute ideals of liberty knowing full and well that your country and the liberty of those residing in it would be saved by some hypothetical classified information. That is absolutely illogical and unreasonable.
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No, I am not destroying anything. Others would be. I am willing to fight others while not compromising. If you are going to call me crazy, fine. But, don't make **** up about my stance simply to help your own position.
 
#290
#290
Danl said:
No. Your game is a different game. Your game has no plausible basis in reality and you know it.

Decisions whether are not to establish and maintain state secrets as a possible way to preserve a country's interests have been and will continue to be made by folks in many countries around the world on a near-constant basis. My scenario is an attempt, maybe feeble, to reduce the complexities of making such decisions to a level that can be discussed.

Your game is a nonsensical attempt at "Gotcha"!
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Is my scenario outside of the logical possibilities? Or, is it within the possibilities and you simply refuse to answer because you no longer like where this game is headed?
 
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#291
#291
therealUT said:
No, I am not destroying anything. Others would be. I am willing to fight others while not compromising. If you are going to call me crazy, fine. But, don't make **** up about my stance simply to help your own position.
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In the hypothetical situation presented, you are entirely culpable for the loss of your country's liberty. If presented with a scenario in which you can either sacrifice "absolute liberty" for the preservation of near-absolute liberty for your electorate or fight a battle you know to be a pointless endeavor and ultimately lose all liberty, and you pick the latter option, you are at fault along with the aggressor. Utter devotion to liberty at all costs, even the complete loss of liberty, is simply incompetence.
 
#292
#292
notabed22 said:
I promise you that, in this scenario, you are completely void of reason and logic.

You are willing to destroy a country in some vain attempt not to compromise your own absolute ideals of liberty knowing full and well that your country and the liberty of those residing in it would be saved by some hypothetical classified information. That is absolutely illogical and unreasonable.
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Even if his philosophies would lead to the death of this country that in no way makes them worse than yours. For yours are certainly doing the same thing, just more slowly.
 
#293
#293
therealUT said:
Is my scenario outside of the logical possibilities? Or, is it within the possibilities and you simply refuse to answer because you no longer like where this game is headed?
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Yes, I believe your scenario is outside of the logical possibilities. To my knowledge, no country has ever contemplated raping infants as a way to preserve their national interests. I see no situation where that would become an integral part of the process.

Did you propose your scenario to me to try to see what I think about state secrets vs liberties or are you uncomfortable with where my scenario went?
 
#294
#294
Danl said:
In the scenario it is not a "risk" that the bad guys would win and strip you, if you survive, and your family of their liberty. It is a given.

It is a "risk" in the scenario that your liberty would be further eroded beyond this one "state secret".

Is your answer still fight, die, and sentence your family and everyone else to a life without liberty?
Click to expand...

I'm not getting into these hypothetical discussions, neither the time or energy. Just stating my personal preference.
 
#295
#295
notabed22 said:
In the hypothetical situation presented, you are entirely culpable for the loss of your country's liberty. If presented with a scenario in which you can either sacrifice "absolute liberty" for the preservation of near-absolute liberty for your electorate or fight a battle you know to be a pointless endeavor and ultimately lose all liberty, and you pick the latter option, you are at fault along with the aggressor. Utter devotion to liberty at all costs, even the complete loss of liberty, is simply incompetence.
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The British are coming. The British are coming


Ring any bells?
 
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#298
#298
Obsessed said:
Your vague representation of a hypothetical left it open to interpretation

Hence my response. And I feel it was justified.
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Yea... but it doesn't relate to the hypothetical scenario presented. So...

(Unless, of course, you dream up a way that it is. Which, again, I'm really excited to see.)
 
#299
#299
Danl said:
Yes, I believe your scenario is outside of the logical possibilities. To my knowledge, no country has ever contemplated raping infants as a way to preserve their national interests. I see no situation where that would become an integral part of the process.

Did you propose your scenario to me to try to see what I think about state secrets vs liberties or are you uncomfortable with where my scenario went?
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Well, it is not outside the logical possibilities. Sorry to have to break that to you.

I'm not uncomfortable at all with your scenario. Before you brought it forth I had already explicitly stated that risking the lives of seven billion was not problematic for me . So, would you rape the infant?
 
#300
#300
notabed22 said:
Yea... but it doesn't relate to the hypothetical scenario presented. So...

(Unless, of course, you dream up a way that it is. Which, again, I'm really excited to see.)
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Dream?

Your president took all my dreams.



My scenario fit perfectly. I caught you with your pants down. Your scenario fit perfect with history. You failed.
 
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