Edward Snowden: American Hero

#52
#52
The Obama bashers here will call him a hero just because they think he has embarrassed Obama.

Never mind that he has stripped us of a critical tool to combat terror.
 
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#53
#53
lawgator1 said:
The Obama bashers here will call him a hero just because they think he has embarrassed Obama.

Never mind that he has stripped us of a critical tool to combat terror.
Click to expand...

Hahahahaha


Yeah it worked for Boston bombers huh?
 
#54
#54
lawgator1 said:
The Obama bashers here will call him a hero just because they think he has embarrassed Obama.

Never mind that he has stripped us of a critical tool to combat terror.
Click to expand...

This is not about Obama. Why do you believe Obama is the motivation for everything that people think on this board?
 
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#55
#55
lawgator1 said:
The Obama bashers here will call him a hero just because they think he has embarrassed Obama.

Never mind that he has stripped us of a critical tool to combat terror.
Click to expand...

I think he's a hero for coming out against what's going on, not because I think it will embarrass a politician that will be gone in three more years. Again, big difference in a government program that has proper oversight, properly run and not abusing our 4th Amendment Rights...

And what's going on right now. This whole issue just transcended politics and went straight for our core rights as listed under the Constitution. While I just as much as anyone can understand National Security, this reeks of McCarthyism and the good old days of J Edgar Hoover where files were kept on everyday Americans because they just might have been a threat. And frankly with the way government agencies have been going after the political opposition, I don't feel safe with this program right now and honestly you shouldn't either. Administrations come and go and change at the voter's whims and who knows which groups could be targeted down the road. This is not an anti-Obama thing, this is a "I don't care who is in the White House, it's scary to think of the power they control in monitoring each and every part of our lives" thing. It's way too easy to abuse the power they wield in their hands and call it "National Security" no matter who happens to be in the White House. And just one conversation, even in a joking manner, can lead to "conspiracy to..." and end up with people in court and probably in jail. Think the DOJ can't or won't give it a whirl in court calling it "Conspiracy to hinder the execution of public law in accordance with 10 USC, Sec 333" since the Insurrection Act was amended in 2008? Wake up and look around at what's happening in this country and think of the logical outcome to all this.

So you believe it's perfectly okay to spy on the entire American population, regardless of political affiliation, and call it an anti-terror tool? No, I don't believe that is right.

If the tables were turned and the GOP was doing what this Administration was doing, I would figure you would be saying what I'm saying right now and banging your hand on a desk demanding answers. And believe it or not, I think you would have plenty of so called right wing fanatics right by your side. So try to step back and look at this objectively without political affiliation. I know it'll be hard to as you're used to defending this President all the time. But this isn't about politics, this is about the very soul of this nation as well as our God given rights to some basic privacy being violated in the name of security. This is your children's future being shaped right now. They can either have what freedoms we have left right now or they can live their lives looking over their shoulders and waiting for Miniluv to come calling.
 
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#57
#57
Grand Vol said:
I think he's a hero for coming out against what's going on, not because I think it will embarrass a politician that will be gone in three more years. Again, big difference in a government program that has proper oversight, properly run and not abusing our 4th Amendment Rights...

And what's going on right now. This whole issue just transcended politics and went straight for our core rights as listed under the Constitution. While I just as much as anyone can understand National Security, this reeks of McCarthyism and the good old days of J Edgar Hoover where files were kept on everyday Americans because they just might have been a threat. And frankly with the way government agencies have been going after the political opposition, I don't feel safe with this program right now and honestly you shouldn't either. Administrations come and go and change at the voter's whims and who knows which groups could be targeted down the road. This is not an anti-Obama thing, this is a "I don't care who is in the White House, it's scary to think of the power they control in monitoring each and every part of our lives" thing. It's way too easy to abuse the power they wield in their hands and call it "National Security" no matter who happens to be in the White House. And just one conversation, even in a joking manner, can lead to "conspiracy to..." and end up with people in court and probably in jail. Think the DOJ can't or won't give it a whirl in court calling it "Conspiracy to hinder the execution of public law in accordance with 10 USC, Sec 333" since the Insurrection Act was amended in 2008? Wake up and look around at what's happening in this country and think of the logical outcome to all this.

So you believe it's perfectly okay to spy on the entire American population, regardless of political affiliation, and call it an anti-terror tool? No, I don't believe that is right.

If the tables were turned and the GOP was doing what this Administration was doing, I would figure you would be saying what I'm saying right now and banging your hand on a desk demanding answers. And believe it or not, I think you would have plenty of so called right wing fanatics right by your side. So try to step back and look at this objectively without political affiliation. I know it'll be hard to as you're used to defending this President all the time. But this isn't about politics, this is about the very soul of this nation as well as our God given rights to some basic privacy being violated in the name of security. This is your children's future being shaped right now. They can either have what freedoms we have left right now or they can live their lives looking over their shoulders and waiting for Miniluv to come calling.
Click to expand...


You are aware this was also going on with a Republican in the White House ?

Not defending Obama. This issue goes beyond party lines. There are leaders of both parties that are saying they are in favor of this program, likewise you have members of both parties saying they are opposed to it.

I would say it is safe to say some of the senators and congress members that are saying they are opposed to this program were aware of it and voted to approve it.

This is politics as usual. I sometime think it would be very scary if we actually knew what has gone on and is going on in our government.
 
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#62
#62
Gramps said:
You are aware this was also going on with a Republican in the White House ?
Click to expand...

Yes, should have made that point a little clearer to say "had Bush or <insert GOP Pres here> downplayed the extreme nature of the data collection on everyday Americans, the left would be in an uproar along with members from the right as well."
 
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#64
#64
Grand Vol said:
Yes, should have made that point a little clearer to say "had Bush or <insert GOP Pres here> downplayed the extreme nature of the data collection on everyday Americans, the left would be in an uproar along with members from the right as well."
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Has Bush made any statement concerning this?

If he has I am not aware of it and doubt he will.

Cheney on the other hand may say something.
 
#67
#67
Hero? No - as he admits he did it for himself because of the "world" he wants to live in.

Am I glad he did it? Absolutely.

Same as Manning? No - Manning simply did an indiscriminate document dump that with all likelihood contained names of operatives and helpers. Snowden revealed the mechanics of a specific program and vetted which docs to be released to avoid endangering specific people.

As for the contention that he took away this tool - a bunch of the posters complaining about the "reveal" claim to have known all along that we do this. If true don't you think the terrorists knew too? You can't have it both ways.
 
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#68
#68
YorkVol said:
Can anyone explain in detail the 4th Amendment connection to this?
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For me there are 2 issues though neither probably is cut and dried violation.

1. The records are seized without knowledge and without suspicion of wrongdoing. The government claims nothing is done with those records UNTIL suspicion arises but one might argue this is violates the "seizure" part of the 4th.

2. We simply have to believe that no one in the government uses this data UNTIL suspicion and judicial approval is granted. If it is used in anyway without that (which we cannot know) then it clearly is a violation of the spirit of the 4th.

The point is that no one can make a legal Constitutional challenge on the program when it is secret - even Congressional members could not legally challenged whether or not this violates the Constitution.
 
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#69
#69
volinbham said:
Hero? No - as he admits he did it for himself because of the "world" he wants to live in.

Am I glad he did it? Absolutely.

Same as Manning? No - Manning simply did an indiscriminate document dump that with all likelihood contained names of operatives and helpers. Snowden revealed the mechanics of a specific program and vetted which docs to be released to avoid endangering specific people.

As for the contention that he took away this tool - a bunch of the posters complaining about the "reveal" claim to have known all along that we do this. If true don't you think the terrorists knew too? You can't have it both ways.
Click to expand...

I would think the terrorist would at least be assuming we were doing this and be as cautious as possible. jmo.
 
#71
#71
volinbham said:
For me there are 2 issues though neither probably is cut and dried violation.

1. The records are seized without knowledge and without suspicion of wrongdoing. The government claims nothing is done with those records UNTIL suspicion arises but one might argue this is violates the "seizure" part of the 4th.

2. We simply have to believe that no one in the government uses this data UNTIL suspicion and judicial approval is granted. If it is used in anyway without that (which we cannot know) then it clearly is a violation of the spirit of the 4th.

The point is that no one can make a legal Constitutional challenge on the program when it is secret - even Congressional members could not legally challenged whether or not this violates the Constitution.
Click to expand...

On the first issue, to me, the metadata are just bits and bytes until they are attributed to an actual person. Probable cause comes when the initial signal coming from overseas has information indicating some suspicious activity. At this point, those nodes that are linked to the initial signal should be able to be identified and attributed to a person. I think everyone would agree that we would like to know who a known or suspected adversary may be communicating with in the US(even if some of those people turn out to be US persons). But, if I understand this correctly, the raw metadata isn't attributed to anyone per se.

To exploit this can be done a couple of ways. First, the way it seems most on this board would prefer, you can follow the signals blindly, take the list of numbers to the FICA Court, get warrants, review the records, send the info out to the law enforcement agencies and hope that you are on time.

Or you can have the data available on hand, pull just the PII you need and send that to the law enforcement for action in minutes.

The debate should be along these lines and should include the safe guards and accountability that must be built into the system to make sure our data isn't mishandled.

On the second point, I can't argue with that. In my view, we've lost all confidence in the Legislative Branch's ability to act as a proper check to the Executive Branch. We feel the Judicial Branch is co-opted as well. Consequently, the public doesn't believe the debate has or will ever occur.

In my view, we all need to look around and find real representatives to send to Washington who will stand up against the Administration, regardless of political party and uphold their responsibilities.

I'm thinking there is a Business Professor in Birmingham that needs to step up.
 
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#72
#72
YorkVol said:
On the first issue, to me, the metadata are just bits and bytes until they are attributed to an actual person. Probable cause comes when the initial signal coming from overseas has information indicating some suspicious activity. At this point, those nodes that are linked to the initial signal should be able to be identified and attributed to a person. I think everyone would agree that we would like to know who a known or suspected adversary may be communicating with in the US(even if some of those people turn out to be US persons). But, if I understand this correctly, the raw metadata isn't attributed to anyone per se.

To exploit this can be done a couple of ways. First, the way it seems most on this board would prefer, you can follow the signals blindly, take the list of numbers to the FICA Court, get warrants, review the records, send the info out to the law enforcement agencies and hope that you are on time.

Or you can have the data available on hand, pull just the PII you need and send that to the law enforcement for action in minutes.

The debate should be along these lines and should include the safe guards and accountability that must be built into the system to make sure our data isn't mishandled.

On the second point, I can't argue with that. In my view, we've lost all confidence in the Legislative Branch's ability to act as a proper check to the Executive Branch. We feel the Judicial Branch is co-opted as well. Consequently, the public doesn't believe the debate has or will ever occur.

In my view, we all need to look around and find real representatives to send to Washington who will stand up against the Administration, regardless of political party and uphold their responsibilities.

I'm thinking there is a Business Professor in Birmingham that needs to step up.
Click to expand...

The problem is we are told that all they have access to is metadata. The leaker has since come out and indicated otherwise. I find it hard to believe a guy would essentially sacrifice everything for bits and bytes of data.
 
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#75
#75
Gramps said:
I would think the terrorist would at least be assuming we were doing this and be as cautious as possible. jmo.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that was part of the reason it was so hard to track Bin Laden as he was using a mail courier. These guys deliver info in ways that our government has almost no way of tracking. If the NSA was truly using this stuff to stop terrorists then our government would announce more often the fact that they had actually thwarted something.
 
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