ESPN media bias at it again

#51
#51
bamawriter said:
Better? I don't believe so. Allen is, however, more deserving of the award for 2016.



No, but it's not because I think Barnett isn't the better player. Allen fits Bama's scheme better than Barnett because he's 25 pounds bigger, can move inside, and is much stouter against the run. In a 4 down linemen front, I absolutely go with Barnett.



If I'm voting for an award or an All-America team I'm going to look at the stats for his defense. The only positions where team stats are irrelevant are punter and kicker.



Of course it is.



Create an award for the guy who would hypothetically perform best on a hypothetical team, give me a vote, and I'll cast it for Barnett.



And I'm sure it's not at all possible for you to lack objectivity.
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Take Allen off Bama and the Defense is just as dominate.
Remove Barnett and UT loses at least 2 more games.

One player is more valuable, one is not.
The award is supposed to go to the most outstanding player.
 
#52
#52
jcv0010 said:
Take Allen off Bama and the Defense is just as dominate.
Remove Barnett and UT loses at least 2 more games.

One player is more valuable, one is not.
The award is supposed to go to the most outstanding player.
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Barnett is so valuable that he willed UT to the 109th ranked defense? Valuable players make their teammates better.

You mentioned that Barnett always gets double or triple-teamed. Did he use his body to free up his teammates to make a play? How many sacks do UT's linebackers have as a result of our Barnett's play? Williams, Anderson, and Foster are all great players. But their lives are made much easier because Jonathan Allen is in front of them.
 
#53
#53
bamawriter said:
Barnett is so valuable that he willed UT to the 109th ranked defense? Valuable players make their teammates better.

You mentioned that Barnett always gets double or triple-teamed. Did he use his body to free up his teammates to make a play? How many sacks do UT's linebackers have as a result of our Barnett's play? Williams, Anderson, and Foster are all great players. But their lives are made much easier because Jonathan Allen is in front of them.
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Well when you are using 3rd stringers it kind of takes a toll on a defense. Hard to compare Jumper to Foster, etc.

I'll kick you a few scenarios just because I'm curious and then drop it. Allen won the award, congrats to him.

1) if they are on the same team who wins the award?
2) if UT managed to go 10-2 (like they should have) does Barnett win the award?
3) does Allen have the same production on UT's team this year?

The reason I ask the third question is because I think the player who wins that award should be able to produce similar numbers are weaker defense. They should have an impact anywhere they play.

Side note: this isn't the first time a Bama player snubbed someone for an award i.e. Ingram winning Heisman over Big Toby (although I was happy for Ingram because he seemed like a really good kid who overcame a lot), and you could make a very strong case Mccaffery should have won the Heisman last year over Henry.

You've admitted yourself that it is more about the team, which doesn't make sense to me. Should be about the player and the impact they have on their team.
 
#54
#54
jcv0010 said:
Well when you are using 3rd stringers it kind of takes a toll on a defense. Hard to compare Jumper to Foster, etc.

I'll kick you a few scenarios just because I'm curious and then drop it. Allen won the award, congrats to him.

1) if they are on the same team who wins the award?
2) if UT managed to go 10-2 (like they should have) does Barnett win the award?
3) does Allen have the same production on UT's team this year?

The reason I ask the third question is because I think the player who wins that award should be able to produce similar numbers are weaker defense. They should have an impact anywhere they play.

Side note: this isn't the first time a Bama player snubbed someone for an award i.e. Ingram winning Heisman over Big Toby (although I was happy for Ingram because he seemed like a really good kid who overcame a lot), and you could make a very strong case Mccaffery should have won the Heisman last year over Henry.

You've admitted yourself that it is more about the team, which doesn't make sense to me. Should be about the player and the impact they have on their team.
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I feel like your questions are just asking me to repeat that I think Barnett is the better player. I've already said that I do.

Football isn't basketball. You can't just plug in a superstar and let him win the game single-handedly. Unfortunately for Barnett he is the best guy on a bad defense. He can't fix it by himself. It's a fair point that his personal stats are excellent, but you can't expect people to ignore that the defense is getting ripped every week. UT gave up more rushing yards in two games against UK and Mizzou than Bama gave up in all 13. It is fair to say that the defense would be worse without Barnett, but that's saying very little at this point.
 
#55
#55
Still seems to be a lot of folks bitter about Woodson winning it in 97 over Peyton which is where all the Peppers/ESPN hate is coming from.

I'll agree that Peppers should not be on the list, but in 97 Woodson did something no one else did this year - he went out and took it. He made big plays in big games when everyone was watching. Games that mattered, plays that mattered.

Peppers didn't do any of that this year. While still a dang fine player, he could have won it had he stepped up to the plate and taken it vs OSU when the whole country was watching.
 
#56
#56
bamawriter said:
Because stats alone don't tell the story.

As an example, AJ Johnson led the SEC in tackles in 2012. The defense he played on was the football equivalent of a flaming bag of dog crap on Derek Dooley's front porch. Did Johnson's stats make him the best defensive player, or even the best linebacker, in the SEC?
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nope. and everything reflected that. as I have already pointed out defenses are graded differently. its not just tackles, but the disruptive plays: tfls and sacks and QBH that matter. No one here has trumpeted Tackles as the case for best defensive player. sure if all else was equal, but it isn't.

again the POY awards are becoming the Heisman instead of the true best player. coincidentally I think this year the Heisman is looking at the best players for the most part.
 
#57
#57
bamawriter said:
Barnett is so valuable that he willed UT to the 109th ranked defense? Valuable players make their teammates better.

You mentioned that Barnett always gets double or triple-teamed. Did he use his body to free up his teammates to make a play? How many sacks do UT's linebackers have as a result of our Barnett's play? Williams, Anderson, and Foster are all great players. But their lives are made much easier because Jonathan Allen is in front of them.
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yes Vereen. and Barnett still made it a lot better for our defense. teams were running and throwing away from him. which should have made things easier, but we were so injured our offense should never have punted outside the 20. a couple of our interceptions were due to his pressure, and we had few enough where it can't be discounted.

we were playing scout team against your starters in the first half. if anything the rest of the team brought Barnett down as much as he brought them up.
 
#58
#58
LouderVol said:
again the POY awards are becoming the Heisman instead of the true best player. coincidentally I think this year the Heisman is looking at the best players for the most part.
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Agreed except for Peppers. I appreciate the novelty of a guy who plays in all three phases, but he's not close to being one of the best players in the country in any of the three. Nothing wrong with being a jack of all trades, but he should be a master of at least one before being a Heisman finalist.
 
#59
#59
bamawriter said:
Agreed except for Peppers. I appreciate the novelty of a guy who plays in all three phases, but he's not close to being one of the best players in the country in any of the three. Nothing wrong with being a jack of all trades, but he should be a master of at least one before being a Heisman finalist.
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Agreed, there was that Stanford LB/RB a couple years ago, can't remember his name.
 
#61
#61
bamawriter said:
Well, there you have it.
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Allen was made prettier by his team, Barnett uglier by his. look at them side by side and Barnett is the prettier pick.

we aren't picking the best team here, the best player on a side of the ball. none of Allen's stats jump off the page at you. not seeing he is bad or has bad stats; but nothing that grabs the trophy.
 
#63
#63
LouderVol said:
Allen was made prettier by his team, Barnett uglier by his. look at them side by side and Barnett is the prettier pick.

we aren't picking the best team here, the best player on a side of the ball. none of Allen's stats jump off the page at you. not seeing he is bad or has bad stats; but nothing that grabs the trophy.
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This may be getting into the weeds a bit, but the issue I'm having with anyone point to the stats is that you are comparing two players who are both listed at "defensive end", but who play two different positions. A defensive end in Alabama's 3-3-5 is a very different role than a defensive end in UT's 4-2-5.

It's why I have trouble giving a fair answer to questions like "would you trade Allen for Barnett" or "what kind of numbers would either guy put up if he played for the other's team." No, Allen would not put up Barnett's numbers if he played for UT because he's not a rush end. Likewise, Barnett wouldn't put up Allen's numbers at Bama because he's not built to plug gaps and reestablish the line of scrimmage. He'd have to play OLB (he's much more physically similar to Ryan Anderson than he is to Allen). Either team would be worse off if the guys traded places.

My point being, when talking about the best overall defensive player, you can't always rely on stats because stats are often predicated on position. You wouldn't say that a certain cornerback is better than a certain defensive tackle because he has more interceptions. While the comparison between Allen and Barnett is not apples-to-oranges, it's certainly comparing red apples to green.
 
#64
#64
the problems with your apples comes from the color. thats all these awards are looking at now. not its size, taste, juiciness etc etc.

And going off of the NCAAs players of the week at defensive line (not end or tackle), not strictly based on stats, Barnett wins as well. 4 to 2. and we even had another player win it earlier as well; while no other Bama player makes the list at the ubiquitous defensive line category.

College football's All-Week 12 team: The best players at each position | NCAA.com
 
#65
#65
LouderVol said:
and we even had another player win it earlier as well; while no other Bama player makes the list at the ubiquitous defensive line category.
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Wait. I thought Allen's numbers were inflated because of all the guys around him, and now I come to find out that no one else on the line ever won "player of the week"?

Strange days we live in.
 
#66
#66
bamawriter said:
Wait. I thought Allen's numbers were inflated because of all the guys around him, and now I come to find out that no one else on the line ever won "player of the week"?

Strange days we live in.
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and i thought you were saying Allen made the team better?

plenty of guys in the secondary and linebackers were mentioned. so i guess he only helped them, didn't help his position group at all? Its not like he was a stats monster.

again point being the other guys made Allen's job easier, not the other way around.
 
#67
#67
LouderVol said:
and i thought you were saying Allen made the team better?

plenty of guys in the secondary and linebackers were mentioned. so i guess he only helped them, didn't help his position group at all? Its not like he was a stats monster.

again point being the other guys made Allen's job easier, not the other way around.
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You're intentionally being dense now. You're better than this.
 
#68
#68
bamawriter said:
You're intentionally being dense now. You're better than this.
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so are you.

Allen played on a better team with all the help he could get, yet no competition at his spot, as far as AA goes, and produces worse numbers.

again, this wasn't picking the best defensive player in the nation. nothing backs it up. if this was best defense and the "leader", whatever that means, then sure. this is supposed to be an individual award.
 
#69
#69
bamawriter said:
You're better than this.
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LouderVol said:
Allen played on a better team with all the help he could get, yet no competition at his spot, as far as AA goes, and produces worse numbers.

again, this wasn't picking the best defensive player in the nation. nothing backs it up. if this was best defense and the "leader", whatever that means, then sure. this is supposed to be an individual award.
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You are doing your best to prove me wrong.
 
#70
#70
bamawriter said:
This may be getting into the weeds a bit, but the issue I'm having with anyone point to the stats is that you are comparing two players who are both listed at "defensive end", but who play two different positions. A defensive end in Alabama's 3-3-5 is a very different role than a defensive end in UT's 4-2-5.

It's why I have trouble giving a fair answer to questions like "would you trade Allen for Barnett" or "what kind of numbers would either guy put up if he played for the other's team." No, Allen would not put up Barnett's numbers if he played for UT because he's not a rush end. Likewise, Barnett wouldn't put up Allen's numbers at Bama because he's not built to plug gaps and reestablish the line of scrimmage. He'd have to play OLB (he's much more physically similar to Ryan Anderson than he is to Allen). Either team would be worse off if the guys traded places.

My point being, when talking about the best overall defensive player, you can't always rely on stats because stats are often predicated on position. You wouldn't say that a certain cornerback is better than a certain defensive tackle because he has more interceptions. While the comparison between Allen and Barnett is not apples-to-oranges, it's certainly comparing red apples to green.
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the problem with this is he also didn't even top the charts for a DT, Oliver at Houston. So he isn't the best red apple or green apple out there. yet because he is a yellow apple of inferior quality to the reds and the greens he gets the award being yellow?

again frankly the color, or the fruit, shouldn't matter. you have said so yourself that Allen isn't the best defensive player, he is just the heart of the best defense. Putting up good, but not great, numbers isn't enough. If Barnett had 8.5 sacks you wouldn't hear me making an argument for him. heck even if he had just ten i may still not make the argument for Barnett.

you have to apply some metric, once you do that and look at where Allen generally falls, defensive line, he doesn't stand out. You can't just say he can't be judged on other position standards. you have narrowed the field down so much as to ignore any other input.

to go back to the OP Allen is a lot like Peppers. and you said he shouldn't be considered because Peppers isn't an ace at any of the positions he floats around to. If Peppers can't (and shouldn't) be allowed to hold this floating position that no one, or very few people, play Allen shouldn't either.
 
#71
#71
LouderVol said:
the problem..
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The problem is that you want your guy to be considered "the best." If Barnett doesn't win every award or top every list, then it has to be either a bias against UT or a bias in favor of Alabama. The fact that such comparisons are completely subjective seems to be lost on you.

Because this is tedious I leave it at this:

You're right. Everyone else is wrong.
 
#73
#73
"You're going to draft a safety with a lucky interception in the top 10? We get fired for mistakes like that." That's what a director of college scouting texted me this week about Michigan's Jabrill Peppers.
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savage
 
#75
#75
bamawriter said:
The problem is that you want your guy to be considered "the best." If Barnett doesn't win every award or top every list, then it has to be either a bias against UT or a bias in favor of Alabama. The fact that such comparisons are completely subjective seems to be lost on you.

Because this is tedious I leave it at this:

You're right. Everyone else is wrong.
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No, the problem is that these awards aren't about the individuals, which they should be.

If your team isn't ranked in the top 10 then you are basically disqualified, even if you are The best player in the country at your position.
 
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