EVALUATING FULMER

[Liper]

I'm one that gets a little tired of hearing the winningest active coach thing. Let's look at this record and see if this coach looks like an elite program coach. I'll use the last 5 full seasons with this season in progress. That represents a full cyle and a solid place for evaluation.

Key Wins = ranked or solid teams
Eggs Laid = blowouts or inferior teams

2000
Record: 8-4
Key Wins: None
Eggs Laid: K ST
Titles: None
Ranking: NR

2001
Record: 11-2
Key Wins: LSU, FL
Eggs Laid: GA, LSU
Titles: None
Ranking: 4

2002
Record: 8-5
Key Wins: None
Eggs Laid: FL, BAMA, MIA, MARY
Titles: None
Ranking: NR

2003
Record: 10-3
Key Wins: FL, MIA
Eggs Laid: AUB, GA, CLEM
Titles: None
Ranking: 18

2004
Record: 10-3
Key Wins: FL, GA
Eggs Laid: AUB 1, ND
Titles: None
Ranking: 13 (?)

2005
Record: 4-5
Key Wins: LSU
Eggs Laid: FL, GA, ND
Titles: None
Ranking: NR

A couple of points: No titles; Disproportionate number of eggs laid to game played; poor record; poor ranking; and nothing to generally show an unbiased onlooker that the coach of the above has done a good job.

P.S. 9 and 10 win seasons are not what they used to be. When you play 11 games, they are great. When you play 13, they are not as much.

P.P.S. In a 13 game season, 10 wins is a .769 winning%. That isn't terrible, but a great season it is not.

 

[secfanclub]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 18, 2005 3:42 PM
I'm one that gets a little tired of hearing the winningest active coach thing.  Let's look at this record and see if this coach looks like an elite program coach.  I'll use the last 5 full seasons with this season in progress.  That represents a full cyle and a solid place for evaluation.

Key Wins = ranked or solid teams
Eggs Laid = blowouts or inferior teams

2000
Record: 8-4
Key Wins: None
Eggs Laid: K ST
Titles: None
Ranking: NR

2001
Record: 11-2
Key Wins: LSU, FL
Eggs Laid: GA, LSU
Titles: None
Ranking: 4

2002
Record: 8-5
Key Wins: None
Eggs Laid: FL, BAMA, MIA, MARY
Titles: None
Ranking: NR

2003
Record: 10-3
Key Wins: FL, MIA
Eggs Laid: AUB, GA, CLEM
Titles: None
Ranking: 18

2004
Record: 10-3
Key Wins: FL, GA
Eggs Laid: AUB 1, ND
Titles: None
Ranking: 13 (?)

2005
Record: 4-5
Key Wins: LSU
Eggs Laid: FL, GA, ND
Titles: None
Ranking: NR

A couple of points: No titles; Disproportionate number of eggs laid to game played; poor record; poor ranking; and nothing to generally show an unbiased onlooker that the coach of the above has done a good job.

P.S. 9 and 10 win seasons are not what they used to be.  When you play 11 games, they are great.  When you play 13, they are not as much.

P.P.S. In a 13 game season, 10 wins is a .769 winning%.  That isn't terrible, but a great season it is not.

[snapback]195032[/snapback]​

Nice bit of information to chew on.

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 18, 2005 3:42 PM
I'm one that gets a little tired of hearing the winningest active coach thing.  Let's look at this record and see if this coach looks like an elite program coach.  I'll use the last 5 full seasons with this season in progress.  That represents a full cyle and a solid place for evaluation.

Key Wins = ranked or solid teams
Eggs Laid = blowouts or inferior teams

2000
Record: 8-4
Key Wins: None
Eggs Laid: K ST
Titles: None
Ranking: NR

2001
Record: 11-2
Key Wins: LSU, FL
Eggs Laid: GA, LSU
Titles: None
Ranking: 4

2002
Record: 8-5
Key Wins: None
Eggs Laid: FL, BAMA, MIA, MARY
Titles: None
Ranking: NR

2003
Record: 10-3
Key Wins: FL, MIA
Eggs Laid: AUB, GA, CLEM
Titles: None
Ranking: 18

2004
Record: 10-3
Key Wins: FL, GA
Eggs Laid: AUB 1, ND
Titles: None
Ranking: 13 (?)

2005
Record: 4-5
Key Wins: LSU
Eggs Laid: FL, GA, ND
Titles: None
Ranking: NR

A couple of points: No titles; Disproportionate number of eggs laid to game played; poor record; poor ranking; and nothing to generally show an unbiased onlooker that the coach of the above has done a good job.

P.S. 9 and 10 win seasons are not what they used to be.  When you play 11 games, they are great.  When you play 13, they are not as much.

P.P.S. In a 13 game season, 10 wins is a .769 winning%.  That isn't terrible, but a great season it is not.

[snapback]195032[/snapback]​

I agree with much of this. However, I'm not sure how the '02 loss to Miami is anything but UT getting their a$$es kicked by an obviously superior team. I defy anyone to look at the personnel on the field for those two teams that day and tell me the result should have been any different.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by hatvol96@Nov 18, 2005 3:47 PM
I agree with much of this. However, I'm not sure how the '02 loss to Miami is anything but UT getting their a$$es kicked by an obviously superior team. I defy anyone to look at the personnel on the field for those two teams that day and tell me the result should have been any different.

[snapback]195035[/snapback]​

Yep, MIA was the better team, no question. However, we couldn't even make a dent in them. We should not have been that bad in the game. That's my point.

 

[CSpindizzy]

As I've mentioned before with Bobby Cox and the Braves, he's a great manager. But for some reason he has taken us up several levels but just cannot seem to get us over to that final level. Braves fans have been on the edge of their seats for years only to see one World Series win.

The same goes for Fulmer. It's all fine and dandy that he has so many wins. But we have to decide if we want a coach who can get the most wins, most being against losing or mediocre opponents, or someone who can win us titles. Losing to UGA every year and not mastering UF will not get us those titles. Now with Spurrier there is another coach who has the proven ability to beat Fulmer.

If you want a National Title contender, you can't lose 2-4 games. Actually you can't lose a single game.

Fulmer's a great coach but he seems to have reached a plateau. Perhaps with better assistants, he can prove me and others wrong. But I don't think many will wait too much longer to see. I see about two years to prove the new staff. Then the legitimate grumbling will have teeth to call on a full change.

 

[WA_Vol]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 18, 2005 4:42 PM
I'm one that gets a little tired of hearing the winningest active coach thing.  Let's look at this record and see if this coach looks like an elite program coach.  I'll use the last 5 full seasons with this season in progress.  That represents a full cyle and a solid place for evaluation.

P.P.S. In a 13 game season, 10 wins is a .769 winning%.  That isn't terrible, but a great season it is not.

[snapback]195032[/snapback]​

Nice post.

During this time Fulmer was 51-22 (.699).

 

[bleedingorange]

U know guys i cant figure out why most people call Fulmer great. I cant say one good thing about him as a coach. He cant teach, he cant motivate, he cant discipline, but he sure can clap. I guess clapping makes u great cause he sure is good at that. ]

clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Ps. As far as recruiting goes the 107,000 stadium and top of the line facilities are what brings in the kids. And the exposure we get on TV doensnt hurt anything either. Theres no way we could do worse without him but we sure can with him.

 

[Volstorm]

To summerize the above info...NO TITLES.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by oklavol@Nov 18, 2005 5:31 PM
Nice post.

During this time Fulmer was 51-22 (.699).

[snapback]195049[/snapback]​

I'm like most of you, but jeez, you just can't have "great" years every year...and that 13 game season, assumes that, starting next year anyway, a) you played in the conf. cg, or B) a bowl game...10 wins in a 12 game reg season is 83% winning %...10-2 any year, even in a 12 game reg season is pretty darn good.

But to nit pick your seasons a bit...
2000...we did beat Bama, and since when does that not qualify as a quality win? the rest of the year was ho hum, and very, very average....
2001...I agree w/LSU, UF, but i would add Bama, ND and Michigan as well...it sucked that we didn't win the conf. that year, but you can't honestly look at this season and trully be disappointed can you?
2002...agree 100%. that year sucked, big time.
2003...agree here as well...had we won that bowl game, that year would be looked on with a little more appreciation i think..
2004...I would still include Bama as a key win...the loss to ND hurt, we should have won that game...but anyway...no real shame in losing to that Auburn team, and the bowl game made everyone feel good.
2005...missing one large EGG...South Carolina.

Definitley not what we've all become accustomed to as UT fans, granted, but save this year and 02, it hasn't been all bad.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by Volstorm@Nov 18, 2005 4:52 PM
To summerize the above info...NO TITLES.

[snapback]195072[/snapback]​

Exactly! :clapping:

I might add that the proliferation of drubbings on national TV gets a little old.

 

[bleedingorange]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 18, 2005 4:55 PM
Exactly!  :clapping:

I might add that the proliferation of drubbings on national TV gets a little old.

[snapback]195075[/snapback]​

Most definately :bow: :bow: :bow:

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by jakez4ut@Nov 18, 2005 4:54 PM
10 wins in a 12 game reg season is 83% winning %...10-2 any year, even in a 12 game reg season is pretty darn good.

But to nit pick your seasons a bit...
2000...we did beat Bama, and since when does that not qualify as a quality win?
2001...I agree w/LSU, UF, but i would add Bama, ND and Michigan as well
2004...I would still include Bama as a key win...the loss to ND hurt, we should have won that game...but anyway...no real shame in losing to that Auburn team, and the bowl game made everyone feel good.
2005...missing one large EGG...South Carolina.

Definitley not what we've all become accustomed to as UT fans, granted, but save this year and 02, it hasn't been all bad.

[snapback]195074[/snapback]​

9-4 or 10-3 are not special seasons. However, everything hinges on the games themselves and who we lose to and who we beat and when. Example: Last we won 10 games, but...we got DUNKED ON NATIONAL TV by AUB; lost to a TERRIBLE ND team; and won nothing. So how is that a great year? It's an OK year, but you can't hang your hat on it like Fulmer tries to.

2000 BAMA wins are not key wins when they are .500 or below.

2001 Never said this was a bad year. But we didn't win anything and it was the best year.

The problem with the Fulmer record is that it hinges on pretending that the decent years were great even we didn't accomplish anything. They say, "what's bad about a 10 win season? What are you, unreasonable?"

No, but if that's as good as it gets...

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by bleedingorange@Nov 18, 2005 5:57 PM
Most definately :bow:  :bow:  :bow:

[snapback]195076[/snapback]​

Yeah, I do agree...but again, when you evaluate Fulmer, you have to take in everything...and YES!!!, the last 5 years have been a drop off, and YES!!, this year is a culmination of issues we've all noticed, even in good years, over time. And YES!! something is going to have change, philisophically speaking in regards to discipline.

But you just can't chop off the previous 8 years of his career...as a resume, it stacks up pretty well...
4 SEC East titles.
2 SEC titles
1 NC
13 consecutive Bowl Appearances
Dozens of NFL draft picks
1 National Coach of the Year
and your favorite...
Highest winning % among active coaches

Look, don't get me wrong, i am not a Fulmer apologist...i think he DOES need to change things. I do think he is part of the issue, especially when it comes to development and discipline, BUT...our lack of success over the past few years are not a result of his lack of preparation, lack of work, or lack of loyalty and dedication to UT football. They guy has given basically his entire adult life to UT football. Trust me, he loves it as much if not more than all of us do, and he's got a lot more invested in it than we do.

You take all that in to consideration, and you got to give the man some respect, and he's earned it. And he's earned the right to go and fix it.

I mean seriously, realistically in the SEC, what is your expectation year in and year out? Granted, 4-5 heading in to the Vandy game isn't on the radar screen when speaking of expectations, but you can't really expect them to be SEC and/or NC every year?

 

[holdemvol]

Originally posted by jakez4ut@Nov 18, 2005 5:20 PM
Yeah, I do agree...but again, when you evaluate Fulmer, you have to take in everything...and YES!!!, the last 5 years have been a drop off, and YES!!, this year is a culmination of issues we've all noticed, even in good years, over time.  And YES!! something is going to have change, philisophically speaking in regards to discipline.

But you just can't chop off the previous 8 years of his career...as a resume, it stacks up pretty well...
4 SEC East titles.
2 SEC titles
1 NC
13 consecutive Bowl Appearances
Dozens of NFL draft picks
1 National Coach of the Year
and your favorite...
Highest winning % among active coaches

Look, don't get me wrong, i am not a Fulmer apologist...i think he DOES need to change things.  I do think he is part of the issue, especially when it comes to development and discipline, BUT...our lack of success over the past few years are not a result of his lack of preparation, lack of work, or lack of loyalty and dedication to UT football.  They guy has given basically his entire adult life to UT football.  Trust me, he loves it as much if not  more than all of us do, and he's got a lot more invested in it than we do. 

You take all that in to consideration, and you got to give the man some respect, and he's earned it.  And he's earned the right to go and fix it.

I mean seriously, realistically in the SEC, what is your expectation year in and year out?  Granted, 4-5 heading in to the Vandy game isn't on the radar screen when speaking of expectations, but you can't really expect them to be SEC and/or NC every year?

[snapback]195097[/snapback]​

Nice post. I would also like some analysis of the other top SEC teams over the last 5 years. Who has been great in the
SEC over the last 5 years? GA, FLA, Auburn, Bama, and LSU have not had dissapointing seasons during that time?

 

[bleedingorange]

Think about it a second guys look how much this man has made off of the University in his career. It would be easy to get a bit complacent and lazy if u were in his shoes. If he got fired today do u honestly think he would suffer. The man and his family are set for life why should he care about the University of Tennessee. Its just a job, right. I have a hard time thinking he has put his all into this job. Why else are we so undisciplined, underachieving, unmotivated, and unteached every year. Sounds like somebodies not doing there coaching duties to me. Boy it would be nice to half ass do your job every year and make over 2 million doing it. Keep on clapping Fulmer your time is coming.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by holdemvol@Nov 18, 2005 6:27 PM
Nice post.  I would also like some analysis of the other top SEC teams over the last 5 years.  Who has been great in the
SEC over the last 5 years?  GA, FLA, Auburn, Bama, and LSU have not had dissapointing seasons during that time?

[snapback]195102[/snapback]​

Exactly. Thank you. No one is just dominating the SEC anymore...it's really evened out a lot. YOu could make the arguement that UGA has been the one that has really let down, with all the talent they've had they won, what, only 1 SEC title, and didn't even play for a NC? LSU has won 2 SEC titles, and a NC...UF hasn't won it since, what 2000? Bama hasn't won it since ??? And Auburn was a one hit wonder last year...not that they suck this year, but definitely not as good as last year...

IT'S FREAKIN' HARD TO WIN THE SEC FOLKS, MUCH LESS THE NC OUT OF THE SEC.... :rock:

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by bleedingorange@Nov 18, 2005 6:32 PM
Think about it a second guys look how much this man has made off of the University in his career.  It would be easy to get a bit complacent and lazy if u were in his shoes.  If he got fired today do u honestly think he would suffer.  The man and his family are set for life why should he care about the University of Tennessee.  Its just a job, right.  I have a hard time thinking he has put his all into this job.  Why else are we so undisciplined, underachieving, unmotivated, and unteached every year.  Sounds like somebodies not doing there coaching duties to me.  Boy it would be nice to half ass do your job every year and  make over 2 million doing it.  Keep on clapping Fulmer your time is coming.

[snapback]195106[/snapback]​

Ok, then give me your short list of who could do better over the next 14 years??? And please be realistic...it's not a fantaasy draft...

You really ought to go find a Nebraska fan and find out how bad, bad is. Jeez. You think we got it so bad in Knoxville...Fulmer sux, and he doesn't care, and he's stupid right? Believe me, i've stood in front of my TV on several occaisons and screamed bloody murder at CPF for a number of things that have just pissed me off over the years...what fan hasn't of any school right? But y'all got to get a grip. He isn't that freakn' bad folks. we're having one bad year, and that one bad year may still include a bowl appearance and bowl win. Is it bad compared to what we expected this year and what we're accustomed to? yeah, but on the whole, if that's as bad as it gets, cool w/me. At least we aren't getting beat by 70 at home by Texas Tech.

is he a disciplinarian? NO. is he even the best x's and o's coach? NO. does he win? YES. Does he recruit? YES. Does he have (in most years) a good coaching staff around him? YES.

What Fulmer lacks in x's and o's and rah, rah bis boom bah, he makes up for by putting talent on the field and letting his coaches coach.

He'll get it fixed. trust me.

 

[bleedingorange]

your saying it all right there. He cant coach. Why are u supporting him

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by jakez4ut@Nov 18, 2005 5:20 PM

But you just can't chop off the previous 8 years of his career...as a resume, it stacks up pretty well...

-4 SEC East titles.
-Highest winning % among active coaches

You take all that in to consideration, and you got to give the man some respect, and he's earned it.  And he's earned the right to go and fix it.

I mean seriously, realistically in the SEC, what is your expectation year in and year out? 

[snapback]195097[/snapback]​

1. There is no such thing as an SEC East title. It's a divisional seeding issue for the championship game.

2. He's definitely earned what he got. I like him generally, even though he bugs the crap out of me. I want him to do well.

3. Absolute expectations are tough because things are so fluid. But we ought to win 2 SECC every decade and be in the mix when we don't win. That should be normal.

2.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 18, 2005 6:46 PM
1. There is no such thing as an SEC East title.  It's a divisional seeding issue for the championship game.

2. He's definitely earned what he got.  I like him generally, even though he bugs the crap out of me.  I want him to do well.

3. Absolute expectations are tough because things are so fluid.  But we ought to win 2 SECC every decade and be in the mix when we don't win.  That should be normal.

2.

[snapback]195115[/snapback]​

OK, fine, he won the SEC East 4 times...Wasn't the Ol' Ball coach that alwasy used to say..."our 1st priority is to win the Eastern Division" You can't go anywhere unless you do that first anyway, so winning it is an accomplishment in an of itself...each time you win it, you increase your chances at winning the whole thing...
And as for the 2 SEC titles each decade, if memory serves, he's on that track, and had an opportunity to win 2 others this decade...and it's only half over....2 under Fulmer in the 90's (3 for the program total...).

But that expecation is not unrealistic in my book...if we won 2 or 3 every 10 years...and based on past performance over the past 25 years...that's about where we're at...we won 2 in the 80's right? 85 and 89? 3 in the 90's? 90, 97 and 98...
and played for it twice in this decade...

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by jakez4ut@Nov 18, 2005 5:34 PM
Exactly.  Thank you.  No one is just dominating the SEC anymore...it's really evened out a lot.  YOu could make the arguement that UGA has been the one that has really let down, with all the talent they've had they won, what, only 1 SEC title, and didn't even play for a NC?  LSU has won 2 SEC titles, and a NC...UF hasn't won it since, what 2000?  Bama hasn't won it since ???  And Auburn was a one hit wonder last year...not that they suck this year, but definitely not as good as last year...

IT'S FREAKIN' HARD TO WIN THE SEC FOLKS, MUCH LESS THE NC OUT OF THE SEC.... :rock:

[snapback]195107[/snapback]​

It has evened out some. But most of those teams you cite fired their coaches or still suck. No one puts up with continual mediocrity.

If Saban stays at LSU, he makes a big run.

FL lost their coach.

GA hired Richt.

BAMA sucks.

AUB hired Borges and almost fired Tinkerbell

TN and FL have come down. The others have come up.

TN is a borderline top 20 program right now.

 

[smokedog#3]

i agree liper this shows the downward trend to the program. fulmer is the most overated coach in the country. he gets his winning percentage by beating up on vandy, kentucky, la monroe. he plays that card all the time along with the NC. there are better coaches out there we just need to go get them.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by bleedingorange@Nov 18, 2005 6:44 PM
your saying it all right there. He cant coach. Why are u supporting him

[snapback]195114[/snapback]​

4 SEC East titles.
2 SEC titles
1 NC
13 consecutive Bowl Appearances
Dozens of NFL draft picks
1 National Coach of the Year
and your favorite...
Highest winning % among active coaches

That's why. Who you got that's going to do better than that over the next 14 years? That's not EVER going to have a bad season? That's NEVER going to even have the possiblity of having a losing record?

If you got someone that can do that, GREAT. I'm all for it. Unitl we do, what we got just ain't that bad.

No one has ever said CPF was a great "coach". He's a great administrator. And sometimes that's better than being a great "coach". Ask Bobby Bowden how much he misses Mark Richt coaching his offense now?

 

[bleedingorange]

Originally posted by smokedog#3@Nov 18, 2005 5:54 PM
i agree liper this shows the downward trend to the program.  fulmer is the most overated coach in the country.  he gets his winning percentage by beating up on vandy, kentucky, la monroe. he plays that card all the time along with the NC.  there are better coaches out there we just need to go get them.

[snapback]195118[/snapback]​

Hey Smoke why does everyone think Fulmer cant be replaced

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by jakez4ut@Nov 18, 2005 5:52 PM
OK, fine, he won the SEC East 4 times...

But that expecation is not unrealistic in my book...if we won 2 or 3 every 10 years...

[snapback]195116[/snapback]​

Yeah, the SEC East needs to be won from a tournament perspective. But it is not something that can be held up as an accomplishment - because it's a bookkeeping entry, not a conference.

You can tie for the East and be the 6th best team in the conference and finish out of the top 25.

If Fulmer does not win a SECC through 2008, then he will have gone an entire decade without winning one. Moreover, he will have solidified an entire era of football with NFL-rich talent and 1 top 10 season to show for it.