Evolution...

#76
#76
rjd970 said:
Yeah but the Bible only seems to care about what happened here, that is the point. It would be nice for you to point out those leaps in logic I have made.

Here is the basic Biblical narrative written by Edmund Standing (B.A. Theology & Religious Studies and an MA in Critical & Cultural Theory)



Of course people on here will inevitably argue that their faith can't be related in such simplistic terms. But can anybody point out anything factually wrong with this?
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your leap in logic would be about the fundamental difference your pointing out between you and I.

You're basic question about how God came to be if he generated the big bang is the exact question you're not answering about where the energy came from that started all of this.
 
#77
#77
rjd970 said:
If you don't have the stomach for cynicism (no matter how true it actually is), how about I just quote the Nicene Creed (from the same article):




There you have it. This is the basics of all must believe in order to be Christian, at a minimum. This is the 'faith of the church', which Christians see is 'responsible' for proclaiming and defending. We see the story of a creator God who 'speaks' through the Israelite 'prophets', who places important and accurate information about the future in the 'Scriptures' (i.e. the Old Testament), a God who 'comes down' from and 'ascends' to what can only be an actual place called 'Heaven', who is born of a virgin mother, who was crucified 'for our sake', who rose from the dead, who is to return one day from 'Heaven' in order that he can 'raise' dead bodies back to life for 'judgement', and who will take believers into an eternal 'kingdom'.

Again, I can find nothing that Standing has misrepresented here.
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Is there something that makes the creed infallible or those that compiled the Bible infallible?

Is there something that makes the Christian belief exclusive of all others, besides those who choose to believe it that way?

For you to try to boil down the view of all Christians to a few simple lines tells me you're shallow and haven't reasoned through your own origins very far.

I'm fine with the questioning, because I've done it often and asked many of the questions that agnostics and atheists ask and had few answered to any true solution, but to pretend that you have an answer yourself, when you're ultimate response is "I don't know" is a bit pathetic.
 
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#78
#78
rjd970 said:
Cynical or not, there simply is no disputing that this narrative underpins the Bible, the Church creeds, liturgies, and centuries of theological speculation. Again, show me where anything is factually wrong. This is Christianity in two paragraphs. .

...because there is no good reason to believe the Bible, Qu'ran, or any story written in these religious texts, and there is no reason to believe they were divinely inspired words.
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rjd970 said:
If you don't have the stomach for cynicism (no matter how true it actually is), how about I just quote the Nicene Creed (from the same article):




There you have it. This is the basics of all must believe in order to be Christian, at a minimum. This is the 'faith of the church', which Christians see is 'responsible' for proclaiming and defending. We see the story of a creator God who 'speaks' through the Israelite 'prophets', who places important and accurate information about the future in the 'Scriptures' (i.e. the Old Testament), a God who 'comes down' from and 'ascends' to what can only be an actual place called 'Heaven', who is born of a virgin mother, who was crucified 'for our sake', who rose from the dead, who is to return one day from 'Heaven' in order that he can 'raise' dead bodies back to life for 'judgement', and who will take believers into an eternal 'kingdom'.

Again, I can find nothing that Standing has misrepresented here.
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What is being misrepresented is the over simplification of religion, faith and a Creator. Anyone can pick apart dogmatic views from specific religions.

The scientific theories used to explain creation are woefully inadequate and none preclude a Creator. Personally, I'm more of Deist than anything but find my spirituality through Christianity. I do reject the notion that one must be a Christian to be "saved" (in whatever form that occurs) and I'm not particularly religious at all.

Unlike many atheistic claims, science and religion are not necessarily at odds. I think it's entirely logical to assume there is a force (in my view sentient) in the universe that is much greater than our current level of understanding.

So, pick away at specific teachings of specific religions to debunk the notion of a greater being/force. No skin off my back. Just don't try to paint that as fact.
 
#79
#79
volinbham said:
What is being misrepresented is the over simplification of religion, faith and a Creator. Anyone can pick apart dogmatic views from specific religions.

The scientific theories used to explain creation are woefully inadequate and none preclude a Creator. Personally, I'm more of Deist than anything but find my spirituality through Christianity. I do reject the notion that one must be a Christian to be "saved" (in whatever form that occurs) and I'm not particularly religious at all.

Unlike many atheistic claims, science and religion are not necessarily at odds. I think it's entirely logical to assume there is a force (in my view sentient) in the universe that is much greater than our current level of understanding.

So, pick away at specific teachings of specific religions to debunk the notion of a greater being/force. No skin off my back. Just don't try to paint that as fact.
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i think you have it backward. to be a christian, you have to be saved.

as for science for creation. creationist take the evolution theory and disprove the theory. the whole point of creation science is to show there is intelligent design.
 
#80
#80
joevol320 said:
i think you have it backward. to be a christian, you have to be saved.
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I was referring to the afterlife in whatever form that occurs. Personally, I don't think Heaven is only reserved for Christians but I don't want to derail this thread.
 
#82
#82
rjd970 said:
Are you telling me Christians don't believe God has revealed himself to them, at the very least, in part? Seriously, because this is a first for me.
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Jesus revealed himself to everyone. Whether you accept him or not he has still revealed himself to you.


The only difference in a Christian and non-Christian is accepting who Christ is.
 
#83
#83
BigPapaVol said:
your leap in logic would be about the fundamental difference your pointing out between you and I.

You're basic question about how God came to be if he generated the big bang is the exact question you're not answering about where the energy came from that started all of this.
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Fine, then use your own logic to regress back to energy for the big bang being created by God. If this is the case then God would have had to be created by something, no? This argument that everything regressed back to a prime mover and then that prime mover is by definition unmoved is not honest in the least. If you are willing to say there is a prime unmoved mover then I should be able to say that any point along that continuum anything can be unmoved.

Saying God created the energy for the big bang simply begs the question of who or what created God. Otherwise, I could just say the universe is infinite and is the prime unmoved mover. Either way, neither one of us knows.

I'm fine with the questioning, because I've done it often and asked many of the questions that agnostics and atheists ask and had few answered to any true solution, but to pretend that you have an answer yourself, when you're ultimate response is "I don't know" is a bit pathetic.
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You're obviously not fine with it because you still misrepresent my position. Find me one place on this entire board where I have said "God doesn't exist, that is the answer". I have repeatedly said "I don't know". Let me say it again so you will understand it..."I don't know". I have never pretended to have the answer. All I know is that the reasons for believing in "The God Did It Theory" are entirely faith-based, and every attempt at empirical justification at proving his existence comes up short. There are either good reasons for what one believes, or there isn't. If you think faith is a sufficient reason to believe God, specifically the Chrisitan one, started everything, that is your choice. But you can't paint it as some rigorous empirically based thought out solution. All you can say is I have faith it is so. It is that simple.

Given what you have said here, I think the far more honest anwer to my initial question of what would constitute proof that would get you to fundamentally question your faith should have been "Nothing, it is a matter of faith and because of such, no amount of proof will get me to change my mind". Instead, you at least see some merit in an attempt at an empirical explanation of some sort.

Faith is the default position when all other reasons fail. The fact that we have to say God did it because we don't know otherwise is only proof of the elasticity of religious belief combined with the holes in scientific knowledge we have.
 
#84
#84
In the end, you and I come back to the same position, whether you want to admit it or not. You simply don't know and to pretend that my I don't know is any different is absurdity.

Faith is not my default position and I've explained why. The fact that you've tried to lump that reason in with all of the others because you can't understand is OK with me. I'm don't care if you ever agree. That's your 'perogative.'
 
#85
#85
volinbham said:
I was referring to the afterlife in whatever form that occurs. Personally, I don't think Heaven is only reserved for Christians but I don't want to derail this thread.
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if heaven isn't reserved just for christians, then what is the standard to get into heaven?
 
#87
#87
joevol320 said:
if heaven isn't reserved just for christians, then what is the standard to get into heaven?
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Tough question but given the similarity of prescriptions across religions for being a good person, I'd say that's a good place to start.
 
#93
#93
BigPapaVol said:
In the end, you and I come back to the same position, whether you want to admit it or not. You simply don't know and to pretend that my I don't know is any different is absurdity.

Faith is not my default position and I've explained why. The fact that you've tried to lump that reason in with all of the others because you can't understand is OK with me. I'm don't care if you ever agree. That's your 'perogative.'
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Claiming to be the grammar police is laughable coming from a post like this. I don't know what you are trying to say with this sentence.
 
#97
#97
MontereyVol said:
Dont kill
Dont Steal
so on and
so on.
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so don't steal, don't kill, don't lie, honor your parents, don't covet.

what happens if you covet? will you be disqualified? or can you covet 2 times? how many times can you covet? or how many time can you not honor your parents?

i'm just trying to establish the standard is to get into heaven if you don't believe in asking God for forgivness.
 
#99
#99
Joevol what would happen to those people over the ages that never had the opportunity to be exposed to the Bible or to Christian philosophies? What if they had lived a good life and been everything that was asked of a Christian but never knew God. Would a just God be just if he excluded such a man from heaven?

Just something to think about!
 
#100
#100
MontereyVol said:
you do.
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so the individual person determines if he's good enough to get into heaven.

so what if person A thinks it is bad to look at porn. person B thinks it's ok to look at some porn.

with everthing else being equal, who will get into heaven? will both people get into heaven?
 
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