Fearing Obama

#1
TennNC

TennNC

a lover, not a fighter
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#1
What do you fear should Obama become president?

Honestly. Just shoot straight with me.
 
#3
#3
JZVOL said:
Higher taxes - only if you're making $250,000+, bigger gov't - it can't grow more than it has under W, and it'll probably mirror what it was under Clinton, his ideas on HC - won't happen. He barely has a prayer of enacting this.
Click to expand...

see above.

any others?
 
#4
#4
TennNC said:
see above.

any others?
Click to expand...
I fear that people are silly enough to believe the $250k lie. Do the math, it won't fund close to what he's talking about and if it does, unemployment will double.

UHC can pass with a socialist WH and a democratic congress.

Third is this ludicrous idea that he's brining troops home now and that he'll be negotiating with third world despots.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#5
#5
TennNC said:
What do you fear should Obama become president?

Honestly. Just shoot straight with me.
Click to expand...

After the rant you posted about a world under McCain I'm surprised you would even ask.

1) Economy - his plans on tax increases (which will hit small businesses), removing secret ballot voting on unions, increase of capital gains rates, and other burdens (minimum wage, healthcare) are all contra-growth. His knee-jerk willingness to use the WPT shows how he views business.

His job growth claims are HOPES not strategies. When he tells the people of Michigan that he'll bring back those auto jobs he's either a fool or lying. Those jobs are not coming back to Michigan - might as well begin looking for the replacements (as McCain has suggested).

His new energy jobs are likewise a goal - not a plan. Anyone can say you'll have the government dump a bunch of money into a sector and "poof" you've created new jobs - but that's not a sustainable economic growth plan.

2) Taxes - the capitial gains tax increase WILL affect people making less than $250K - some estimates show that 20% of filers who claim capital gains make $50k a year or less. Importantly, this move will raise the cost of capital - not a great idea if you are trying to stimulate economic growth.

On 1 & 2 together, he shows his desire to place redistribution ideology above sound economic policy.

3) Government solutions - virtually all of his policies are based on the government taking a larger role. In some cases, it is with tax credits which is not necessarily bad. In others, it's flat out government growth and spending.

4) Energy - he shuns additional domestic oil production, use of coal and nuclear. I know you'll say he mentions that he's open to these but if you argue McCain is against alternative energy, then you have to take the same tack with Obama on traditional energy.

The government has been dumping money into alternative energy for decades with little movement due to market forces. Dumping more money in generally results in 1 or 2 things -- more money lost or politicized adoption of technology with questionable consequences (e.g. Corn-based ethanol)

5) Ideology/partisanship - Obama takes a "government is the answer" approach to policy. I disagree with that strongly.

More importantly, he has tried to position himself as a new-style, transformative candidate who will unite sides and rise above politics as usual. He has shown no history of doing this and his campaign has shown he has no intention to do so.

If bi-partisan politics is important to you or anyone else, McCain's record dwarfs Obama's in this regard.
 
#7
#7
volinbham said:
After the rant you posted about a world under McCain I'm surprised you would even ask.

1) Economy - his plans on tax increases (which will hit small businesses), removing secret ballot voting on unions, increase of capital gains rates, and other burdens (minimum wage, healthcare) are all contra-growth. His knee-jerk willingness to use the WPT shows how he views business.

His job growth claims are HOPES not strategies. When he tells the people of Michigan that he'll bring back those auto jobs he's either a fool or lying. Those jobs are not coming back to Michigan - might as well begin looking for the replacements (as McCain has suggested).

His new energy jobs are likewise a goal - not a plan. Anyone can say you'll have the government dump a bunch of money into a sector and "poof" you've created new jobs - but that's not a sustainable economic growth plan.

2) Taxes - the capitial gains tax increase WILL affect people making less than $250K - some estimates show that 20% of filers who claim capital gains make $50k a year or less. Importantly, this move will raise the cost of capital - not a great idea if you are trying to stimulate economic growth.

On 1 & 2 together, he shows his desire to place redistribution ideology above sound economic policy.

3) Government solutions - virtually all of his policies are based on the government taking a larger role. In some cases, it is with tax credits which is not necessarily bad. In others, it's flat out government growth and spending.

4) Energy - he shuns additional domestic oil production, use of coal and nuclear. I know you'll say he mentions that he's open to these but if you argue McCain is against alternative energy, then you have to take the same tack with Obama on traditional energy.

The government has been dumping money into alternative energy for decades with little movement due to market forces. Dumping more money in generally results in 1 or 2 things -- more money lost or politicized adoption of technology with questionable consequences (e.g. Corn-based ethanol)

5) Ideology/partisanship - Obama takes a "government is the answer" approach to policy. I disagree with that strongly.

More importantly, he has tried to position himself as a new-style, transformative candidate who will unite sides and rise above politics as usual. He has shown no history of doing this and his campaign has shown he has no intention to do so.

If bi-partisan politics is important to you or anyone else, McCain's record dwarfs Obama's in this regard.
Click to expand...


Very well written.
 
#8
#8
I forgot to add foreign policy:

Obama's foreign policy statements to date show both a perspective of "if we can only get them to like us" and lack of experience. His vow to meet with anyone, anytime without pre-conditions flies in the face of international diplomacy strategies. There is a reason that no leaders of any country take this approach. When pushed on this, he's backed off the original claim. His comments about going into Pakistan with or without their permission shows a "shoot-from-the-hip" approach that he criticizes McCain for. His evolving position on Georgia/Russia shows he wasn't as knowledgeable about the situation as McCain and once he realized McCain had it right, his position morphed into McCain's (ironic since he likes to suggest McCain is adopting his views on places like Afghanistan). His continued failure to admit the surge was the right thing to do shows he is not leading from what's the best solution but from base ideology (I guess he'll be W's 3rd term in that regard). Even when pressed on this issue by O'Reilly, he danced and switched the subject.

Overall, I view his foreign policy stance as even more "I'm okay, you're okay" than that of Clinton. Too soft, too much "we are the problem".
 
#9
#9
volinbham said:
Too soft, too much "we are the problem".
Click to expand...
These two are my problem with the entire left on international policy. It's almost the trial attorney mindset. Our enemies actually have to love that this sentiment exists.
 
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#10
#10
Great job Volinbham! I work for my father's company, and we are small in terms of employees. Obama is our worst nightmare.
 
#13
#13
oh and my dad owns/ runs a small business that is doing very. I have a feeling it won't be if mr obama is in office.
 
#14
#14
Don't use the S word with him, he'll get mad.

TennNC, you know I don't have a personal problem with you, I just disagree with everything you believe in. We've been down this road a hundred times. You will never agree that Obama has socialistic ideas. His idea on bigger government and taxes is enough to scare anyone. Add his "associations", some comments he's made, and his views on the war and terrorism and you'd have to be blind to not see why a lot of people don't want him elected.
 
#15
#15
The first thing I thought of when I saw this thread was "foreign policy". Volinbham was dead on and I couldnt agree more.
 
#17
#17
TennNC said:
What do you fear should Obama become president?

Honestly. Just shoot straight with me.
Click to expand...

v'bham covered the high points, I'll just add that Obama's choice of Joe Biden is proof that he has no intention of reaching across party lines and setting a new tone in Washington.

I don't fear Biden personally, but I am afraid of what can happen if he shows up, drunk, in Putin's office, and babbles incoherently about how much he loves him some Michelle Obama.
 
#18
#18
MG1968 said:
v'bham covered the high points, I'll just add that Obama's choice of Joe Biden is proof that he has no intention of reaching across party lines and setting a new tone in Washington.

I don't fear Biden personally, but I am afraid of what can happen if he shows up, drunk, in Putin's office, and babbles incoherently about how much he loves him some Michelle Obama.
Click to expand...

1_joe_biden_poster.jpg
 
#19
#19
it's a lot of things, socially he's going push for new hate crimes law that will basically make it illegal for churches to speak out against homosexuality. i believe Kennedy has a bill out now that makes it a hate crime if you preach that homosexuality is a sin, obama would support it. he also had said he would promote and pass laws making gay marriage legal from a fed standpoint.

from a defense standpoint, he'll cut military spending more than clinton did, i think he'll hurt our intelligence capabilities more than clinton did. it wouldn't suprise me if have a terrorist attack within 3 years of his 1st term.

he'll talk with our enemies and give in to any demands they have, to show that he's willing to work with them.

financially, he'll raise ever type of taxes that will, in turn, discourage any type of investment. i think you'll see 401k in ira returns deminish even more under his plan. you'll see goods and services go up even more. gas will increase even more.

the whole cost of living will explode and you'll see a lot of companies start laying off people. the last thing companies need are a big tax increase.
 
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#20
#20
MG1968 said:
v'bham covered the high points, I'll just add that Obama's choice of Joe Biden is proof that he has no intention of reaching across party lines and setting a new tone in Washington.

I don't fear Biden personally, but I am afraid of what can happen if he shows up, drunk, in Putin's office, and babbles incoherently about how much he loves him some Michelle Obama.
Click to expand...
hilarious.
 
#22
#22
volinbham said:
After the rant you posted about a world under McCain I'm surprised you would even ask.

1) Economy - his plans on tax increases (which will hit small businesses), removing secret ballot voting on unions, increase of capital gains rates, and other burdens (minimum wage, healthcare) are all contra-growth. His knee-jerk willingness to use the WPT shows how he views business.

His job growth claims are HOPES not strategies. When he tells the people of Michigan that he'll bring back those auto jobs he's either a fool or lying. Those jobs are not coming back to Michigan - might as well begin looking for the replacements (as McCain has suggested).

His new energy jobs are likewise a goal - not a plan. Anyone can say you'll have the government dump a bunch of money into a sector and "poof" you've created new jobs - but that's not a sustainable economic growth plan.


2) Taxes - the capitial gains tax increase WILL affect people making less than $250K - some estimates show that 20% of filers who claim capital gains make $50k a year or less. Importantly, this move will raise the cost of capital - not a great idea if you are trying to stimulate economic growth.

On 1 & 2 together, he shows his desire to place redistribution ideology above sound economic policy.

3) Government solutions - virtually all of his policies are based on the government taking a larger role. In some cases, it is with tax credits which is not necessarily bad. In others, it's flat out government growth and spending.

4) Energy - he shuns additional domestic oil production, use of coal and nuclear. I know you'll say he mentions that he's open to these but if you argue McCain is against alternative energy, then you have to take the same tack with Obama on traditional energy.

The government has been dumping money into alternative energy for decades with little movement due to market forces. Dumping more money in generally results in 1 or 2 things -- more money lost or politicized adoption of technology with questionable consequences (e.g. Corn-based ethanol)

5) Ideology/partisanship - Obama takes a "government is the answer" approach to policy. I disagree with that strongly.

More importantly, he has tried to position himself as a new-style, transformative candidate who will unite sides and rise above politics as usual. He has shown no history of doing this and his campaign has shown he has no intention to do so.

If bi-partisan politics is important to you or anyone else, McCain's record dwarfs Obama's in this regard.
Click to expand...

Why are you surprised? I'm not allowed to get a little frustrated from time to time?

Point-by-point response to your eloquent reply (thank you):

1 and 2:
Voters weighing Obama, McCain tax plans | csmonitor.com

How McCain and Obama will change your tax bill - Jun. 11, 2008

Basically, if you make less than about $600K, your taxes will either go down or will increase about $12 under Obama's plan. And yes, he does believe in taking from the mega-rich and giving less fortunate people a better chance to succeed. I have no problem with that and don't feel threatened in the least.

McCain's is better for small business, but fears about Obama's effect on them are way overstated:

Where Obama and McCain Stand on Small-Business Issues - Risky Business (usnews.com)


3: estimates are that both plans will cause the debt to bloat, McCain's by some $1.2 trillion more than Obama's.

www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/411750_updated_candidates_summary.pdf

from cnn.com:

"The Tax Policy Center estimates that over 10 years, McCain's tax proposals could increase the national debt by as much as $4.5 trillion with interest, while Obama's could add as much as $3.3 trillion."

4. Tom Friedman today said that listening to Republicans shouting "Drill Baby Drill" was analogous to if there'd been chants right before the Internet and PCs took off of "IBM Selectric typewriters, IBM Selectric forever, type, baby, type!"

He also said:

"Well, I started to imagine a column, where the, um, Saudi, Russian and Venezualan observers at the Republican convention were watching this, and what would they be saying to each other? They would be up there in one of those skyboxes, high-fiving each other, it is happy days are here again, drill baby drill. Because what basically Guiliani was leading that crowd into saying, was is "let's stay addicted to oil," and boy, that is the best news in the world, for the Venezualan, Russian and Saudi delegates, they couldn't have scripted a chant like that better themselves."

I'm skeptical of ethanol production, but those who aren't say that we have to break some eggs to make an omelet. It's a step toward making significant breakthroughs that could change the game big-time. I'm okay with some of that, as long as we're realistic about the chances of it working using our best science as proof.

5. McCain's maverick-ness is way overstated (the far right hates him, but he's also changed his tune since his more "maverick" days, but the truth is he never was as much of an iconoclast as it seems), just as the idea that Obama is somehow non-partisan - he's a hardcore Dem, and I'm totally cool with that, just like a lot of people were totally cool with Clinton in the WH.

I do fear that the GOP is slowly but surely being overrun by the religious right. It's becoming a party of neocons, pro-big business, and religious wackos - neither of the 3 parties gives a crap what the others do, as long as they let them have what they each want. It ain't Reagan's or George HW's party anymore. It's James Dobson's, Dick Cheney's, and Rupert Murdoch's party. Why else would McCain have chosen such a hardcore right-winger when he could've chosen Kay Bailey Hutchinson or Tom Ridge? Answer: the Dobsons of the world wouldn't have it.
 
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#23
#23
volinbham said:
I forgot to add foreign policy:

Obama's foreign policy statements to date show both a perspective of "if we can only get them to like us" and lack of experience. His vow to meet with anyone, anytime without pre-conditions flies in the face of international diplomacy strategies. There is a reason that no leaders of any country take this approach. When pushed on this, he's backed off the original claim. His comments about going into Pakistan with or without their permission shows a "shoot-from-the-hip" approach that he criticizes McCain for. His evolving position on Georgia/Russia shows he wasn't as knowledgeable about the situation as McCain and once he realized McCain had it right, his position morphed into McCain's (ironic since he likes to suggest McCain is adopting his views on places like Afghanistan). His continued failure to admit the surge was the right thing to do shows he is not leading from what's the best solution but from base ideology (I guess he'll be W's 3rd term in that regard). Even when pressed on this issue by O'Reilly, he danced and switched the subject.

Overall, I view his foreign policy stance as even more "I'm okay, you're okay" than that of Clinton. Too soft, too much "we are the problem".
Click to expand...

if you come to conclusions based on an interview by Bill O' Reilly, then we don't have as much in common as I thought.

foreign policy is a wash at best for McCain.

McCain reacts quickly. Obama thinks about things first.

One might be good in battle, the other is better in diplomacy.

I sure as hell know this too - I'd rather Joe Biden talking with foreign leaders than Sarah Palin.
 
#24
#24
TennNC said:
..... And yes, he does believe in taking from the mega-rich and giving less fortunate people a better chance to succeed....
Click to expand...

What makes someone mega-rich? (his definition includes small business owners who account for most of the jobs)

Who are these less fortunate people and why don't they have a chance to succeed now?

You are very generous with other peoples money.
 
#25
#25
TennNC said:
if you come to conclusions based on an interview by Bill O' Reilly, then we don't have as much in common as I thought.

foreign policy is a wash at best for McCain.

McCain reacts quickly. Obama thinks about things first.

One might be good in battle, the other is better in diplomacy.

I sure as hell know this too - I'd rather Joe Biden talking with foreign leaders than Sarah Palin.
Click to expand...

yeah, biden was really good in foreign policy. he opposed reagan during the cold war, voted against the
1st gulf war. he has a 30 year record of being wrong.

obama thinks things out? no, he has to poll to see which comment is supported by the general public.
 
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