Federal Indictment of Donald Trump

[lawgator1]

Yeah, sometimes he reminds me of Cori Bush & Waters out there hollering & screaming.

No one listens to them because Dems have the good sense to ignore the shrieking of nutjobs. The GOP, not so much.

 

[C-south]

I worry that the ranting and raving lunacy of folks like Levine will cause MAGA followers to do something stupid. We saw it 1/6. Let's all hope they calm down.

Not sure America can handle another selfie takeover. A real war is coming. It may not be in our lifetime but it’s inevitable at this point. The lunatics have been given free rein for far too long. Maybe we’ll lucky and just get invaded and overthrown.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

No one listens to them because Dems have the good sense to ignore the shrieking of nutjobs. The GOP, not so much.

You must have been living under a rock for 3 years or so.. Waters screeching outside the gas station caused BLM & Antifa the go ahead to burn down democratic cities that they themselves live in. The far left radical Democratic supporters listen for their dog whistles commands given out to them on a daily basis. You only see what you want to see & hear thinking it's the right way..After George Floyd was killed America burned to the ground bc of some of those on the Democratic lawmakers side said to do it.

 

[AM64]

If there’s a paper trail of NARA making the same efforts to retrieve documents from Biden and Biden giving them the Heisman, then they can share a cell.

What about if NARA actually didn't even know documents that Pence and Biden held were even missing? Would that seem to be different treatment by NARA or incompetence by NARA ... or perhaps NARA just didn't care because DC wasn't weaponized against their kind of people? I still think the big point people are missing is whether NARA is actually competent enough to know when documents are missing. NARA sure doesn't seem to follow any kind of process like the military does ... or at least did years ago - considering the Jack Teixeira screwup.

BTW I disagree about the conduct. The point in classifying documents is to see that they are properly stored and handled ... doesn't have anything to do with why someone believes he should be able to access or keep them at will or becomes belligerent when confronted.

 

[AM64]

If (and it's pure speculation) SCOTUS holds that a president has ultimate authority over classification then there was no criminal intent because no crime (possessing the documents) was committed.

There should be a clear process for classifying and declassifying documents by which everyone must abide - no free passes "because I'm president and I say so". I have sincere doubts that the classification/declassification process should even be the decision of one individual - even if that individual is president. NOBODY in US government should be a law unto himself or above the law; we don't have monarchs or dictators.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

 

[RockyTop85]

Do you honestly think that most high profile prosecutions that aren't something like a murderer caught red handed aren't political? Prosecutors seem to be more political than even the run of the mill politician - better at detecting and forecasting wind direction and velocity that would make a weatherman green with envy.

What’s the difference in a political prosecution and a prosecution because somebody is a notorious gang member? Either way there are extraneous motives.

The process exists to make sure it is the persons conduct that determines the outcome.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

There should be a clear process for classifying and declassifying documents by which everyone must abide - no free passes "because I'm president and I say so". I have sincere doubts that the classification/declassification process should even be the decision of one individual - even if that individual is president. NOBODY in US government should be a law unto himself or above the law; we don't have monarchs or dictators.

Solid again.

 

[AM64]

Yes, he admits that he didn't follow protocol. The question SCOTUS will answer is does a POTUS have to follow protocol.

There's only one correct answer to that, and the answer is yes the president has to follow the rules like every other mortal. He doesn't hold absolute power. The question is what happens in feeble legal minds.

 

[BowlBrother85]

If (and it's pure speculation) SCOTUS holds that a president has ultimate authority over classification then there was no criminal intent because no crime (possessing the documents) was committed.

That's not accurate. Even if the documents were entirely declassified, they didn't become his personal property. He was still in violation of the Presidential Records Act. Trump should have returned the documents when NARA requested them.

 

[AM64]

What’s the difference in a political prosecution and a prosecution because somebody is a notorious gang member? Either way there are extraneous motives.

The process exists to make sure it is the persons conduct that determines the outcome.

How about a different look at that. The police and prosecution often work hand in hand, so why aren't they working as diligently to clean up Hispanic and black gangs as the efforts at people like Dillinger? I'd say it has a lot to do with the politics and minorities.

 

[RockyTop85]

What about if NARA actually didn't even know documents that Pence and Biden held were even missing? Would that seem to be different treatment by NARA or incompetence by NARA ... or perhaps NARA just didn't care because DC wasn't weaponized against their kind of people? I still think the big point people are missing is whether NARA is actually competent enough to know when documents are missing. NARA sure doesn't seem to follow any kind of process like the military does ... or at least did years ago - considering the Jack Teixeira screwup.

BTW I disagree about the conduct. The point in classifying documents is to see that they are properly stored and handled ... doesn't have anything to do with why someone believes he should be able to access or keep them at will or becomes belligerent when confronted.

The extra conduct is evidence of intent, mens rea, guilty state of mind, whatever you want to call it.

Prosecuting people for accidental mishandling would waste a lot of resources and allow for more abuse. Going after somebody like Pence who self reports and turns everything back in is senseless. Having to chase people down and go through their **** and uncover their duplicity is also inefficient and wasteful. “Just give it back when asked without any fuss and there won’t be any problems” is also good policy.

If Biden, like Trump, did the opposite of that then there’s evidence it wasn’t just an honest mistake. If so, punish him.

 

[RockyTop85]

How about a different look at that. The police and prosecution often work hand in hand, so why aren't they working as diligently to clean up Hispanic and black gangs as the efforts at people like Dillinger? I'd say it has a lot to do with the politics and minorities.

I think that’s a pretty awful hot take that gets it almost completely backwards. Black people in general don’t get good special treatment by the criminal legal system. Name a bad legal outcome and they’re statistically more likely to happen to black people and minorities even when broken down by similar conduct. That’s where the “politics of minorities” originated.

The reason police don’t use the same tactics as they did in the 30’s is because the middle of the last century they were told that they couldn’t.

 

[lawgator1]

Who? Runny who?

 

[AM64]

The extra conduct is evidence of intent, mens rea, guilty state of mind, whatever you want to call it.

Prosecuting people for accidental mishandling would waste a lot of resources and allow for more abuse. Going after somebody like Pence who self reports and turns everything back in is senseless. Having to chase people down and go through their **** and uncover their duplicity is also inefficient and wasteful. “Just give it back when asked without any fuss and there won’t be any problems” is also good policy.

If Biden, like Trump, did the opposite of that then there’s evidence it wasn’t just an honest mistake. If so, punish him.

It doesn't simply boil down to who has a classified document or why. It's a matter of procedure and process, and obviously it's broken. Proper custody of classified documents and that nobody is above the rules would take care of this kind of thing. There's a reason documents used to be kept in a vault and were accessible only to people cleared to access them - and that would mean with no recording media allowed - scanner, copier, camera, etc - and certainly not to be removed from an enclosed area. The other thing is that classified documents also have (or used to have) cover sheets - doesn't mean anyone handling them, like a file clerk, has the right to lift the cover sheet and read the document. Apply those inconvenient rules and figure out how many files politicians classify really needed to be classified in the first place.

Mishandling of classified documents whether the ones on Hiliary's server or the ones Pence, Biden, and Trump had isn't a matter of whether they had a right to see the material. It's a matter of they mishandled it - period - end of discussion. Intent or attitude don't matter; the act is clear cut.

 

[RockyTop85]

It doesn't simply boil down to who has a classified document or why. It's a matter of procedure and process, and obviously it's broken. Proper custody of classified documents and that nobody is above the rules would take care of this kind of thing. There's a reason documents used to be kept in a vault and were accessible only to people cleared to access them - and that would mean with no recording media allowed - scanner, copier, camera, etc - and certainly not to be removed from an enclosed area. The other thing is that classified documents also have (or used to have) cover sheets - doesn't mean anyone handling them, like a file clerk, has the right to lift the cover sheet and read the document. Apply those inconvenient rules and figure out how many files politicians classify really needed to be classified in the first place.

Mishandling of classified documents whether the ones on Hiliary's server or the ones Pence, Biden, and Trump had isn't a matter of whether they had a right to see the material. It's a matter of they mishandled it - period - end of discussion. Intent or attitude don't matter; the act is clear cut.

I looks to me like the statute requires that the mishandling or retention of the document be willful before it becomes a crime. So, yes, the conduct matters.

 

[AM64]

I think that’s a pretty awful hot take that gets it almost completely backwards. Black people in general don’t get good special treatment by the criminal legal system. Name a bad legal outcome and they’re statistically more likely to happen to black people and minorities even when broken down by similar conduct. That’s where the “politics of minorities” originated.

The reason police don’t use the same tactics as they did in the 30’s is because the middle of the last century they were told that they couldn’t.

I'm saying that to take effective action against gangs would be considered political at this time because of the racial element. I don't disagree with the rest this comment except to point out that the judicial system is broken if effective representation in a courtroom depends on what a person can afford to pay - that would be a direct assessment (and arguably correct assessment) that "justice" can be bought.

 

[lawgator1]

You must have been living under a rock for 3 years or so.. Waters screeching outside the gas station caused BLM & Antifa the go ahead to burn down democratic cities that they themselves live in. The far left radical Democratic supporters listen for their dog whistles commands given out to them on a daily basis. You only see what you want to see & hear thinking it's the right way..After George Floyd was killed America burned to the ground bc of some of those on the Democratic lawmakers side said to do it.

"American burned to the ground..."

Are you even conscious of what you are writing or is the resentment-driven hyperbole just gushing from you controllably at this point?

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

"American burned to the ground..."

Are you even conscious of what you are writing or is the resentment-driven hyperbole just gushing from you controllably at this point?

You're a loon through & through. Your mental decay is gone. No hope for you anymore.
You caught the mental virus that slowly eats away the brain .... it's called liberalism.

 

[AM64]

I looks to me like the statute requires that the mishandling or retention of the document be willful before it becomes a crime. So, yes, the conduct matters.

That sure doesn't match what the military teaches (or did teach) about classified materials. Apparently politicians are "special".

 

[lawgator1]

That sure doesn't match what the military teaches (or did teach) about classified materials. Apparently politicians are "special".

It also matters whether they shared the documents with people without clearance.

And it matters if you even go around bragging you have them, for obvious reasons. I mean, my God, the guy is knowingly keeping and bragging about documents highlighting US weaknesses if attacked, and our own plans if we had to attack someone else.

That's just unforgivable. Period.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

That sure doesn't match what the military teaches (or did teach) about classified materials. Apparently politicians are "special".

The military teaches now how to become "woke" in all phases of your life. Gay pride is being taught ride behind that. Military is teaching you how to hold the other guys hand in combat.

 

[RockyTop85]

That sure doesn't match what the military teaches (or did teach) about classified materials. Apparently politicians are "special".

Search the thread for the word “banana” to see why that might be the case.

 

[RockyTop85]

I'm saying that to take effective action against gangs would be considered political at this time because of the racial element. I don't disagree with the rest this comment except to point out that the judicial system is broken if effective representation in a courtroom depends on what a person can afford to pay - that would be a direct assessment (and arguably correct assessment) that "justice" can be bought.

What knowledge do you have about the actions police have been taking against gangs over the past decade?

 

[rekinhavoc]

That's all fair to point out, but Trump took election denying to another level in 2020. Prior to certification, he publicly pleaded with his Vice President to cast aside electoral college votes from legally chosen sets of electors, so that they could be replaced with a different set of electors which lawyers for his campaign had chosen. This was a very aggressive and Unconstitutional scheme. It was extreme.

People like to bring up Al Gore as an election denier, but even Gore presided over the certification of his own defeat in January of 2001. According to Trump's ridiculous rationale, Gore had the option of refusing to count the electoral votes from Florida.

A Pence / Trump debate would be interesting.