Five Players That Got Screwed By The Hall

#27
#27
TBrown said:
I’m all for narrative commentary as it relates to the baseball HoF but that’s not an accurate assessment of David Ortiz’s career.
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Ortiz had sub 1 or negative WAR for first 5 seasons. Even in year 6, he was barely over 1.

He was slightly above a replacement level player for the Twins
 
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#28
#28
05_never_again said:
It isn't?
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You are spot on.

He was replacement level type player for 6 years, goes to Boston, fails a drug test in 2003 PED survey, and becomes first ballot HOF while guys with higher WAR with no roid connection aren't first ballot because their body looks like they took roids...
 
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#29
#29
BigOrangeMojo said:
Ortiz had sub 1 or negative WAR for first 5 seasons. Even in year 6, he was barely over 1.

He was slightly above a replacement level player for the Twins
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His offensive rate stats were good and he had 31 homers in his only full minor league season. I’m not wasting time looking into it but based on games played, looks a lot more like a staying healthy issue than an unskilled issue. He’s always had prodigious power. Steroids don’t make you a better hitter.
 
#30
#30
TBrown said:
His offensive rate stats were good and he had 31 homers in his only full minor league season. I’m not wasting time looking into it but based on games played, looks a lot more like a staying healthy issue than an unskilled issue. He’s always had prodigious power. Steroids don’t make you a better hitter.
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58 HR in 1700 AB for MN. Avg 1 HR per 29.3 AB

Goes to Boston, gets on the juice, averages 1 per 17 ABs....

The WAR for Murphy's best 6 best seasons > WAR for Orriz's 10 best seasons
 
#31
#31
TBrown said:
His offensive rate stats were good and he had 31 homers in his only full minor league season. I’m not wasting time looking into it but based on games played, looks a lot more like a staying healthy issue than an unskilled issue. He’s always had prodigious power. Steroids don’t make you a better hitter.
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Right...which is why I said he was a AAAA player for many years. He did struggle with some injuries, including a wrist problem which is awful for a power hitter, but regardless of the exact reasons he wasn't even a consistent MLB player until about 2002. Then he goes to Boston and makes 10 ASGs/was among the best hitters of his era, and was a fairly durable player even as he got older. Steroids don't make you a better hitter in terms of hand-eye coordination, but they keep you fresh and on the field.

I don't really want to argue because ultimately we agree on this...if Ortiz didn't play nice with the media, or had a surly temperament like Bonds/Schilling, they'd use the supposed positive PED test from 2003 against him as justification to keep out of the Hall. Instead, they loved the guy, so they overlooked it.
 
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#32
#32
BigOrangeMojo said:
You are spot on.

He was replacement level type player for 6 years, goes to Boston, fails a drug test in 2003 PED survey, and becomes first ballot HOF while guys with higher WAR with no roid connection aren't first ballot because their body looks like they took roids...
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The fact that Ortiz never looked like he juiced (to the contrary, actually) probably helped him get in too.
 
#33
#33
BigOrangeMojo said:
58 HR in 1700 AB for MN. Avg 1 HR per 29.3 AB

Goes to Boston, gets on the juice, averages 1 per 17 ABs....

The WAR for Murphy's best 6 best seasons > WAR for Orriz's 10 best seasons
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Did it right and didn’t break any hallowed records. No one gives a crap about WAR…what is it good for?
 
#35
#35
butchna said:
Did it right and didn’t break any hallowed records. No one gives a crap about WAR…what is it good for?
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I mean...it's a measure of how many games a player helped his team win above what a replacement-level player would have achieved. Ultimately it is about how much you helped your team win games, right?
 
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#36
#36
05_never_again said:
Right...which is why I said he was a AAAA player for many years. He did struggle with some injuries, including a wrist problem which is awful for a power hitter, but regardless of the exact reasons he wasn't even a consistent MLB player until about 2002. Then he goes to Boston and makes 10 ASGs/was among the best hitters of his era, and was a fairly durable player even as he got older. Steroids don't make you a better hitter in terms of hand-eye coordination, but they keep you fresh and on the field.

I don't really want to argue because ultimately we agree on this...if Ortiz didn't play nice with the media, or had a surly temperament like Bonds/Schilling, they'd use the supposed positive PED test from 2003 against him as justification to keep out of the Hall. Instead, they loved the guy, so they overlooked it.
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But he wasn’t a AAAA player. He wasn’t raking in the minors and failing in the big leagues. He just wasn’t playing.
 
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#37
#37
05_never_again said:
I mean...it's a measure of how many games a player helped his team win above what a replacement-level player would have achieved. Ultimately it is about how much you helped your team win games, right?
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It’s a nerd stat that keeps virgins warm with no women in sight.
 
#40
#40
TBrown said:
But he wasn’t a AAAA player. He wasn’t raking in the minors and failing in the big leagues. He just wasn’t playing.
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There also had to be a little ballpark effect once he got to Fenway. That doesn’t quite explain going from 20 HRs to averaging 40, but it’s also not like he started hitting 50+ every year either.
 
#42
#42
knoxvol52 said:
WAR is just a stat that individuals can debate whose the best player.

It's like the +/- useless unless you're talking about hockey.
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I respect a deep analysis of individual stats…but when you have to reboot a computer to argue that Mike Trout deserves the MVP over the first TRIPLE CROWN producer since Carl Yastrzemski? Then give up the dream and cancel that PocketProtectorMatch.com membership and marry that AI chick.
 
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#43
#43
butchna said:
I respect a deep analysis of individual stats…but when you have to reboot a computer to argue that Mike Trout deserves the MVP over the first TRIPLE CROWN producer since Carl Yastrzemski? Then give up the dream and cancel that PocketProtectorMatch.com membership and marry that AI chick.
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I’m not saying Mike Trout deserved the MVP that year.

But Trout had 4x the defensive value as Cabrera.
Trout played an Elite level CF.
Cabrera played below average at 1B (oof).

Hence, Trout’s better overall value.

Cabrera’s 2013 offensive output was better than his 2012 triple crown numbers.
 
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#44
#44
85SugarVol said:
I’m not saying Mike Trout deserved the MVP that year.

But Trout had 4x the defensive value as Cabrera.
Trout played an Elite level CF.
Cabrera played below average at 1B (oof).

Hence, Trout’s better overall value.

Cabrera’s 2013 offensive output was better than his 2012 triple crown numbers.
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So you named her Simone? 😏
 
#47
#47
85SugarVol said:
But seriously @butchna - WAR captures Defensive value as well. Which is a big part of the game.
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Whole lot better way of noticing it than the good old days when we THOUGHT we appreciated it watching Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Jr. 😏
 
#48
#48
butchna said:
Whole lot better way of noticing it than the good old days when we THOUGHT we appreciated it watching Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Jr. 😏
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Can still watch it today too. Pretty easy to see with our own EYES that Mike Trout was vastly more defensively valuable playing elite CF, than Miguel Cabrera was booting around 1B 😉
 
#49
#49
85SugarVol said:
Can still watch it today too. Pretty easy to see with our own EYES that Mike Trout was vastly more defensively valuable playing elite CF, than Miguel Cabrera was booting around 1B 😉
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I spend a lot of the valuable remaining real estate that is my lifespan defending baseball and its fans and its mentality. Always refused to be an apologist for dumb crap like the unwritten rules and refuse to embrace the concept that catching and throwing the baseball real good eclipses the hallmarks like run production. At least no one’s going full looney and discounting pitching over how well you hold someone on base.
 
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#50
#50
butchna said:
I spend a lot of the valuable remaining real estate that is my lifespan defending baseball and its fans and its mentality. Always refused to be an apologist for dumb crap like the unwritten rules and refuse to embrace the concept that catching and throwing the baseball real good eclipses the hallmarks like run production. At least no one’s going full looney and discounting pitching over how well you hold someone on base.
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Trout wasn't going to win A.L. MVP in 2012.

Only 2 rookies have ever won American League M.V.P. as a rookie.

Fred Lynn
Ichiro Suzuki

Plus Miggie won Triple Crown and Tigers won Division.
 
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