Football and Capitalism...

#26
#26
Anyhow... For those on this board who do support capitalism, competition, and logic please JOIN. And if you pull the whole, "I hate MI" perspective then you should be disappointed in yourself... It's not like this costs you money or time.

A poem that hits on the point:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me -
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller
 
#27
#27
Rock33 said:
The free-market will always beat out Govt controls ..........every single time. It doesn't take long to figure that out, its just a matter of how far in the Govt can get to impede the progress. They try hard to do this so they can show capitalism as a failed attempt.
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Yes. It is all a vast conspiracy to get our own economy to fail. I see.
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#28
#28
volconomist said:
This.

The people who keep clamoring for a free market, couldn't stomach an actual FREE market.

These free market crusaders are too busy being big business crusaders to realize that their beloved big businesses have been getting fat on gov't subsidies for decades. I love all the so called conservatives that shop at wal-mart, a store that is the antithesis of their so called theology.
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Are you suggesting that walmart has gotten rich off government subsidies?
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#29
#29
golfballs03 said:
Are you suggesting that walmart has gotten rich off government subsidies?
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You'd be surprised at how much Wal Mart gets in government subsidies. While it's not necessarily made them what they are, it sure hasn't hurt things.

Here locally Wal Mart put in a distribution center (fancy name for a warehouse). It went into the local industrial park so they got tax free bonds and the whole incentive package from the Federal, State, and Local governments to locate their warehouse in the industrial park. Since they have those bonds and until those bonds are paid off (30 years I guess) they don't have to pay property tax on their real estate. They also get tax credits which amount to subsidies from the Feds and State. Also the county has a local occupational tax of 1% gross that everyone else pays except Wal Mart. Wal Mart collects the 1% gross tax from it's employees, but they get to keep it as part of their agreement.

Then there is the issue of the gas and water lines that had to be ran to the Wal Mart Location to service their plant. The county picked up the tab on those as well to a multi 6 figure tune. Oh, also the highway had to be modified with turning lanes, drainage, extra lanes etc to handle the hundreds of trucks coming in and out daily and the State handled that in the highway budget.

Meanwhile the downtown businesses that have been here for years have been trying to convince the city to at the least clean out the storm drains that flooded yesterday again for the last 15 years.
 
#30
#30
Isn't patriotism great. Too bad our government doesn't believe in capitalism, back in line citizen.
 
#31
#31
KYSkipper said:
You'd be surprised at how much Wal Mart gets in government subsidies. While it's not necessarily made them what they are, it sure hasn't hurt things.

Here locally Wal Mart put in a distribution center (fancy name for a warehouse). It went into the local industrial park so they got tax free bonds and the whole incentive package from the Federal, State, and Local governments to locate their warehouse in the industrial park. Since they have those bonds and until those bonds are paid off (30 years I guess) they don't have to pay property tax on their real estate. They also get tax credits which amount to subsidies from the Feds and State. Also the county has a local occupational tax of 1% gross that everyone else pays except Wal Mart. Wal Mart collects the 1% gross tax from it's employees, but they get to keep it as part of their agreement.

Then there is the issue of the gas and water lines that had to be ran to the Wal Mart Location to service their plant. The county picked up the tab on those as well to a multi 6 figure tune. Oh, also the highway had to be modified with turning lanes, drainage, extra lanes etc to handle the hundreds of trucks coming in and out daily and the State handled that in the highway budget.

Meanwhile the downtown businesses that have been here for years have been trying to convince the city to at the least clean out the storm drains that flooded yesterday again for the last 15 years.
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Tax breaks ≠ subsidies

Regardless, Walmart is a symbol of globalization and free trade. Pretty much the antithesis of what American liberals stand for.
 
#32
#32
golfballs03 said:
Tax breaks ≠ subsidies
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Which politician told you that?

The fact is the government uses subsidies, tax breaks, public projects and a host of things to funnel money to the people they (normally the ones greasing the palms of the politicians) want to succeed.

If I were running a retail store that competed against Wal Mart and I had to pay property taxes, pay occupational taxes, get a conventional loan on the open market for my buildings, pay for and install my own turning lane and stop light, pay for and install my own gas, sewer, and water lines, etc could I compete against Wal Mart who doesn't have those costs? Most likely not which is why Wal Mart is continually running other retail stores out of business.
 
#33
#33
KYSkipper said:
Which politician told you that?

The fact is the government uses subsidies, tax breaks, public projects and a host of things to funnel money to the people they (normally the ones greasing the palms of the politicians) want to succeed.

If I were running a retail store that competed against Wal Mart and I had to pay property taxes, pay occupational taxes, get a conventional loan on the open market for my buildings, pay for and install my own turning lane and stop light, pay for and install my own gas, sewer, and water lines, etc could I compete against Wal Mart who doesn't have those costs? Most likely not which is why Wal Mart is continually running other retail stores out of business.
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Taxation is the government taking money that you would otherwise be entitled to. So, a tax break means you get to keep the money you earned!

Subsidies enable people or businesses to obtain money they were not entitled to - the tax dollars of others

In your example, I don't agree with giving preferential treatment to one business over the other. But there is a distinction between a tax break vs subsidy.
 
#34
#34
golfballs03 said:
Taxation is the government taking money that you would otherwise be entitled to. So, a tax break means you get to keep the money you earned!

Subsidies enable people or businesses to obtain money they were not entitled to - the tax dollars of others

In your example, I don't agree with giving preferential treatment to one business over the other. But there is a distinction between a tax break vs subsidy.
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:good!:
 
#35
#35
golfballs03 said:
Taxation is the government taking money that you would otherwise be entitled to. So, a tax break means you get to keep the money you earned!

Subsidies enable people or businesses to obtain money they were not entitled to - the tax dollars of others

In your example, I don't agree with giving preferential treatment to one business over the other. But there is a distinction between a tax break vs subsidy.
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In name only.

You have to get off this idea that tax breaks give back entitled money. Businesses know well before they start a business what they will be taxed on. They make a decision to start a business with this in mind, thus they are NOT entitled to that money.

Subsidies are generally lump sum transfers to entities. Tax breaks are generally lump sum concessions made to entities. While the mechanism may be slightly different, they are in essence the same thing.

Take for example TN and VW in Chattanooga. The state gave close to 600 million in tax concessions to VW to locate within its borders. Thats close to 600 million dollars less in tax revenue TN will retain from the plant. They could have just given them the close to 600 million dollars out of revenue, and it wouldn't have been any different.
 
#36
#36
there is a reason why counties give tax breaks to walmart. because having a walmart pays for itself many times over in jobs and sales tax revenue. there is no conspiracy here.
 
#37
#37
droski said:
there is a reason why counties give tax breaks to walmart. because having a walmart pays for itself many times over in jobs and sales tax revenue. there is no conspiracy here.
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Nobody called it a conspiracy. I just pointed out that people who love to go on and on about the free market, rarely understand what an actual free market is.

Giving tax concessions to Wal-Mart is not, in any way, a free market.
 
#38
#38
i was refering to the original post. but just because america doesn't fit the textbook definition of "free market" that doesn't mean we don't have a free market society. it's kind of like arguing obama isn't a socialist or lenin wasn't a communist.
 
#39
#39
droski said:
i was refering to the original post. but just because america doesn't fit the textbook definition of "free market" that doesn't mean we don't have a free market society. it's kind of like arguing obama isn't a socialist or lenin wasn't a communist.
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Actually, yes it does. How do we have a free market society?

I love the Obama socialist tag. I'm not a huge fan of the president myself, but did you ignore the part where one of the largest tax breaks in history happened recently. I can think of no socialists who'd do that.
 
#40
#40
if america isn't free market based, what economy is?

largest taxbreaks in history? you can't be serious. unless you are talking abuot hte 50% of the country not paying taxes.
 
#41
#41
volconomist said:
Actually, yes it does. How do we have a free market society?

I love the Obama socialist tag. I'm not a huge fan of the president myself, but did you ignore the part where one of the largest tax breaks in history happened recently. I can think of no socialists who'd do that.
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taking over a car company doesn't fit the definition? We are also 4 months away from the biggest tax increase in history. Sounds wonderful
 
#42
#42
volconomist said:
Nobody called it a conspiracy. I just pointed out that people who love to go on and on about the free market, rarely understand what an actual free market is.

Giving tax concessions to Wal-Mart is not, in any way, a free market.
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Only because other businesses may not receive similar tax benifits. Right.

I understand the cost of issuing tax breaks and subsidies. And both are used by Goverments to influence behavior, but I still think there is an important distiction between the two.
 
#43
#43
utvolpj said:
taking over a car company doesn't fit the definition? We are also 4 months away from the biggest tax increase in history. Sounds wonderful
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not just taking over a car company, but violating 200 years of US bankruptcy law and handing the company to the workers. hell that's communism.
 
#46
#46
droski said:
if america isn't free market based, what economy is?

largest taxbreaks in history? you can't be serious. unless you are talking abuot hte 50% of the country not paying taxes.
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What an economy is based on, and what it actually is, are two very different things. Just like Stalin's Russia was originally based on Marxism, but turned into something very different (both horrific in their own right).

Tax cuts started in April of 2009, cut taxes for 95% of all working families.

While I don't agree, you mention the 50% not paying taxes. Wouldn't you be in support of this?
 
#48
#48
utvolpj said:
taking over a car company doesn't fit the definition? We are also 4 months away from the biggest tax increase in history. Sounds wonderful
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You act like that was the first time in US history that a major corporation was bailed out by the US gov't. Lockheed, Chrysler, and the Airline Industry have all had massive gov't bailouts, long before that socialist Obama ever took office.

Funny enough, two of the three of the above occurred with republican presidents in office.
 
#49
#49
volconomist said:
What an economy is based on, and what it actually is, are two very different things. Just like Stalin's Russia was originally based on Marxism, but turned into something very different (both horrific in their own right).

Tax cuts started in April of 2009, cut taxes for 95% of all working families.

While I don't agree, you mention the 50% not paying taxes. Wouldn't you be in support of this?
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no i'm not in support of the investor and working class being forced to pay the overwelming brunt of taxes. if raising taxes on the rich and eliminating htem for the poor isn't socialism i don't know what is.
 
#50
#50
volconomist said:
What an economy is based on, and what it actually is, are two very different things. Just like Stalin's Russia was originally based on Marxism, but turned into something very different (both horrific in their own right).

Tax cuts started in April of 2009, cut taxes for 95% of all working families.

While I don't agree, you mention the 50% not paying taxes. Wouldn't you be in support of this?
Click to expand...

and you've read posts on here by people saying we operate in a true free market?
 
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