Forgive Student Loans?

#576
#576
Seeking every avenue to get out of debts is the most American thing. If it's good for the corporate idols we worship, it's good for the rank and file.

Exploit every loophole, exploit every advantage, be educate others to do the same.
 
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#577
#577
AshG said:
Seeking every avenue to get out of debts is the most American thing. If it's good for the corporate idols we worship, it's good for the rank and file.

Exploit every loophole, exploit every advantage, be educate others to do the same.
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Only if you change the meaning of debt. A debt is something agreed upon by both parties. You’re confusing that with a tax.
 
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#578
#578
I still believe we are not doing the proper analysis here, specifically with regards to:

“What do we get?”
 
#582
#582
85SugarVol said:
Taxes aren’t Debts
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I want to set up a shell individual to take on my debts, and when that shell individual's debts come due, I'd like to set up another shell individual to acquire that debt, ad lib.

At some point when it's feasible for my books to do so, I'll trickle that debt back into my books.

If businesses are people (**** Citizens United), then people can be businesses too.
 
#583
#583
AshG said:
I want to set up a shell individual to take on my debts, and when that shell individual's debts come due, I'd like to set up another shell individual to acquire that debt, ad lib.

At some point when it's feasible for my books to do so, I'll trickle that debt back into my books.

If businesses are people (**** Citizens United), then people can be businesses too.
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Ok Ash
 
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#586
#586
Rasputin_Vol said:
I would have no issue with that if that to an extent. I still think that even in those situations, there is room for haircuts on the debt because it is clear that the loans given in many of these instances should have never been issued in the first place. Pick some arbitrary number between $50-100k and tell them they are responsible for paying no more than that amount.
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JMO but I don’t feel like I knew that much more at 21 than I did at 18. At mid-20’s I think one really gets an idea of what life is all about. But 18 is where we are as a society for adulthood and this is coming from somebody who was smart enough to know the consequences of taking on $100k in debt at 18.

I think bankruptcy should be an option for student loans like any other debt and the government shouldn’t be backing these loans, but if we are agreeing in totality 18 is the age then these should be paid back per terms. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand what one is getting into.

At a minimum, anybody that did pay back these loans should get re-imbursed if we forgive the debt for others. Otherwise you are punishing being smart and responsible.
 
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#587
#587
rjd970 said:
At a minimum, anybody that did pay back these loans should get re-imbursed if we forgive the debt for others. Otherwise you are punishing being smart and responsible.
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Why is so much framed as punishment around here? It's like pain is fetishized.

Why not give everyone a raise because this certain person or persons in your office got one? Why not give everyone some money because Fred hit the lottery jackpot after the ticket you bought was a dud?

I know, it's not all the same thing.
 
#588
#588
rjd970 said:
JMO but I don’t feel like I knew that much more at 21 than I did at 18. At mid-20’s I think one really gets an idea of what life is all about. But 18 is where we are as a society for adulthood and this is coming from somebody who was smart enough to know the consequences of taking on $100k in debt at 18.

I think bankruptcy should be an option for student loans like any other debt and the government shouldn’t be backing these loans, but if we are agreeing in totality 18 is the age then these should be paid back per terms. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand what one is getting into.

At a minimum, anybody that did pay back these loans should get re-imbursed if we forgive the debt for others. Otherwise you are punishing being smart and responsible.
Click to expand...
Those that paid back their loans would get much, much more
 
#589
#589
AshG said:
Why is so much framed as punishment around here? It's like pain is fetishized.

Why not give everyone a raise because this certain person or persons in your office got one? Why not give everyone some money because Fred hit the lottery jackpot after the ticket you bought was a dud?

I know, it's not all the same thing.
Click to expand...

We aren’t talking about the luck of a lottery ticket or merit based pay. We are talking about everybody signing up for the same thing with the same rules and then saying some don’t have to pay it back and others do.

Yes - you are punishing the ones that had to pay it back. How else would you characterize it?
 
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#590
#590
rjd970 said:
We aren’t talking about the luck of a lottery ticket or merit based pay. We are talking about everybody signing up for the same thing with the same rules and then saying some don’t have to pay it back and others do.

Yes - you are punishing the ones that had to pay it back. How else would you characterize it?
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The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
 
#591
#591
AshG said:
I want to set up a shell individual to take on my debts, and when that shell individual's debts come due, I'd like to set up another shell individual to acquire that debt, ad lib.

At some point when it's feasible for my books to do so, I'll trickle that debt back into my books.

If businesses are people (**** Citizens United), then people can be businesses too.
Click to expand...

Aren’t shell companies typically used to hide assets? I’ve never heard of a debt strategy with a shell company. If you have the details on how this works, will you explain? It sounds interesting.
 
#592
#592
AshG said:
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
Click to expand...

What point are you making here?
 
#593
#593
DC_Vol said:
What point are you making here?
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A biblical response to the "If they get a windfall, I'll be pissed" and "I worked myself to death, so should they" crowd.

If loans are forgiven after mine are paid off, good for the people who benefited.
 
#594
#594
AshG said:
A biblical response to the "If they get a windfall, I'll be pissed" and "I worked myself to death, so should they" crowd.

If loans are forgiven after mine are paid off, good for the people who benefited.
Click to expand...

Are you implying government is God?
 
#595
#595
DC_Vol said:
Are you implying government is God?
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No. I'm implying that blessings rain on the just and the unjust, the rich and the poor.

We treat debtors in this country as if they're lepers, a hangover from when the south actually was a gigantic debtor colony.
 
#597
#597
AshG said:
No. I'm implying that blessings rain on the just and the unjust, the rich and the poor.

We treat debtors in this country as if they're lepers, a hangover from when the south actually was a gigantic debtor colony.
Click to expand...

You clearly don’t understand the parable of the vineyard workers if you think it is about debt forgiveness.

And, no, we don’t treat debtors like lepers. Next time you’re in line at the grocery store look around you. 1 in 5 have no debt. Now see how many of the other 4 are being treated like lepers.
 
#598
#598
DC_Vol said:
You clearly don’t understand the parable of the vineyard workers if you think it is about debt forgiveness.

And, no, we don’t treat debtors like lepers. Next time you’re in line at the grocery store look around you. 1 in 5 have no debt. Now see how many of the other 4 are being treated like lepers.
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Point.

Let me change that: how we talk about people with debt on this board.
 
#599
#599
Here’s an idea.

Cancel the debts, but:

1- count the cancellation as income and taxable.

2- lock their credit rating at 600 for a year and forbid any new applications for credit of any kind during that time. Any current debts they owe (credit cards, mortgages, car payments) must be kept current and cannot be bankrupted during that year.

3- permanently ban them for applying for any further federally guaranteed educational loans. Any further education has to be funded through grants, scholarships, private loans or out of pocket.

4- require colleges and universities to provide alternative funding for at least 66% of a degree’s total cost. If a particular degree would normally cost $100k to achieve, only $34K of it can be funded through federal loans. The remaining 66K must come from non-debt accruing means such as endowment funded grants and scholarships or work-study programs.

5- require “unpaid” internships be paid directly to loan providers.
 
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#600
#600
AshG said:
Point.

Let me change that: how we talk about people with debt on this board.
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You should really reframe this as how people who have debt they want someone else to repay for them. It’s a very important distinction.

Most aren’t shaming people for having debt. It’s a reasonable position (though not everyone’s position) that if you took on the debt, you should repay it. The philosophy is as American as baseball.
 
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