Fulmer's last recruiting class...

#51
#51
kptvol said:
Oh, so the point is that good players can help make a good team. Well then excuse me. This is a really high plane of intellectual thought.

You chose to make your point about Fulmer leaving a bare cupboard by dogging a few of the players he left that are actually decent. Better examples would be the huge contingent Kiffin was forced to jettison, or the OL that aren't able to beat out our walkons.
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What OL? haha. Any OL we had were already here. We are very thin at OL. I mean, do you really disagree with that? If so, I'll just suggest that you are simply wanting to argue with me. Everyone understands our OL depth is thin. Which is, again, my entire point.... Fulmer wasn't recruiting as well at the tail-end of his career. That is evident and cannot be argued. Don't understand where you're going with anything you're saying.
 
#52
#52
MrBamSeydu said:
Poole will transfer or he won't play. I mean, what else do you want me to say haha. He's decent. I agree.
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Then why did you feel compelled to dismiss him eariler?

I don't argue with brick walls, but you're coming pretty close.
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Right... facts are hard things. You've yet to deal with the shear statistical fact that in limited action Poole outperformed Oku and it wasn't close.

The anatomy thing was serious. Not going any deeper into it with you than that. I suggest you take me up on it though or at least "research" it.
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Never doubted you were serious... you're just wrong. The ankle is part of the leg just like the thigh, knee, and calf are.

Where did my point not stand up? What does that even mean?

I give up on you haha. Seriously, this has to be Tauren Poole's cousin.
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Good. Your "giving up" is tacit assent that you're wrong.
 
#53
#53
sjt18 said:
So anyone who disagrees with you is by necessity a "fulmerite"? Nice argument there.

Nope. The classes ranked higher.... providing even more proof that the rankings aren't the end all like you seem to think.

The biggest problem this year wasn't the percentage of surviving scholarship players that made contributons... it was simply attrition.



Here's the concept that someone isn't grasping.... You can be excited about the new recruits and new direction of the program without hating on other kids.
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I said David Oku > Poole.

You said Poole > Oku.

Highly ranked recruiting classes = historically better teams in the future. Low ranked classes = historically not as good.

I've already said I'm done arguing with you.

When Tauren Poole transfers or sits on the bench... when these incoming freshmen start over Fulmer's players (like they have already started doing from the 2009 class).... maybe JUST MAYBE you will see my point. But for now, you just don't have a leg....errrr umm... an ankle... to stand on.

:post-4-1090547912:

Until then, I'm going to sign off. Go Vols. :peace2:
 
#54
#54
sjt18 said:
Oh, while we're arguing "stars"... Dan Williams, Dennis Rogan, Luke Stocker, Denarius Moore, Vlad Richard, LaMarcus Thompson, Savion Frazier,.... all very good players... all three stars. Reviez who CMK said was an All American caliber player... what was his star ranking again?
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How many of those were from the 2008 class?

You were very selective with those 3* players you chose weren't you?

What about Josh Hawkins, Todd Campbell, Nick Stephens, C.J. Fleming? I mean we can compare 3* contributions all day long. It's easy at UT because we have so many thanks to Fulmer.

Can you tell me how many games they've won?

When we get better players, we will be a better team. If you disagree with that, you disagree with history and common sense. Therefore, again, haha... no point in arguing with you.
 
#55
#55
MrBamSeydu said:
I said David Oku > Poole.

You said Poole > Oku.

Highly ranked recruiting classes = historically better teams in the future. Low ranked classes = historically not as good.

I've already said I'm done arguing with you.

When Tauren Poole transfers or sits on the bench... when these incoming freshmen start over Fulmer's players (like they have already started doing from the 2009 class).... maybe JUST MAYBE you will see my point. But for now, you just don't have a leg....errrr umm... an ankle... to stand on.

:post-4-1090547912:

Until then, I'm going to sign off. Go Vols. :peace2:
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Come on man, we have already been through this. Barring Special Teams returners in which it is common to start a freshman, 21 of the 22 starters this season (with everyone healthy) were Fulmer's players. Similarly, I would argue that most of the starters next year will be Fulmer's players:

Defense:
Martin
Hughes
Walker
Reveiz
Frazier
Thompson
Evans
Rogan
Waggner - maybe

Offense:
Stephens
Jones
Moore
Stocker
Douglas
Shaw
Pope - maybe
Brimfield

Not including the "maybe's" that is 15 of 22 and that is WITH 2008 being one of Fulmer's worst classes. All I'm trying to show is that while many people are enamored with the whole "play freshman because they were 5 stars" mentality, the truth is that a Senior in college is about the equivalent of a 4 or 5 star in HS.

And like I have already mentioned, I do not believe that Fulmer got lazy at the wheel. many people will disagree with me, but I assure you it is hard to assemble a good recruiting class WHEN YOUR ENTIRE OFFENSIVE STAFF LEAVES after the 2007 season (causing us to have a poor 2008 recruiting rank based on star rankings).
 
#56
#56
MrBamSeydu said:
I said David Oku > Poole.

You said Poole > Oku.

Highly ranked recruiting classes = historically better teams in the future. Low ranked classes = historically not as good.

I've already said I'm done arguing with you.

When Tauren Poole transfers or sits on the bench... when these incoming freshmen start over Fulmer's players (like they have already started doing from the 2009 class).... maybe JUST MAYBE you will see my point. But for now, you just don't have a leg....errrr umm... an ankle... to stand on.

:post-4-1090547912:

Until then, I'm going to sign off. Go Vols. :peace2:
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Your forgetting the fact that Kiffin is trying to stand by his promise to his classes and build for the future. Poole is not a highly ranked recruit that Kiffin is trying to show future recruits and current teams what he can do with him, like Oku. Kiffin is biased towards his players, he is planning for the future success of this program, not the short-term.

It wouldn't matter if Poole or lennon creer were much better than the freshman (which, imo they were.) They were never going to get the nod.
 
#57
#57
O, and referring to the same quote Mrbamseydu, in any argumentative discussion, it is rude to try over and over to only end a discussion on your terms; and you can only appear ignorant.

I've already said I'm done arguing with you.
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then you gave your point on Poole again.

followed by:
Until then, I'm going to sign off. Go Vols.
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then:
How many of those were from the 2008 class?

You were very selective with those 3* players you chose weren't you?

What about Josh Hawkins, Todd Campbell, Nick Stephens, C.J. Fleming? I mean we can compare 3* contributions all day long. It's easy at UT because we have so many thanks to Fulmer.

Can you tell me how many games they've won?

When we get better players, we will be a better team. If you disagree with that, you disagree with history and common sense. Therefore, again, haha... no point in arguing with you.
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No point in arguing with you?
There is no point in arguing with you sir, your argument is simplistic and filled with unreason. How many games have they won (NS, TC, etc.)? Well, because they are on the UT roster, at least 12.

You only named five players! You can't ask the question "how many games have they won?" You would at least need to list 22 underachieving 3 star players :)

and yea, in very simple terms: better players=better teams
but to quote Lane on this one, "there are too many variables" like coaching, attitude, confidence, belief and trust in one's teammates, fast twitchedness, etc.

it is not simply better players=better team :crazy:
even though your not wrong.

Now, I have to get back to my all night and day study session for my final tomorrow.
Go Vols
 
#59
#59
Eric Berry was a rare exception when you watched him in HS, you knew he earned every one of those 5 stars, and if there was 6th star he would have earned that too, and could tell on first glance he was going to be a star. That being said, how many Eric Berry's do you know???? Truth is, you can NEVER predict what a player is going to do at this level, a lot depends on coaches, reactions to the spotlight, weight training, etc etc. Case in point, how many 5 star recruits go to Boise State, TCU, Cincinnati, UTAH??? Few if any!

Fulmer's players had a lot of bad habits, it's not in my mind a question of talent, it's a question of field discipline and player development. And it's much easier to teach a freshman, who doesn't know any better, to play a certain style than it is to teach an upperclassman who has been taught something different his whole career.
 
#60
#60
MrBamSeydu said:
I said David Oku > Poole.

You said Poole > Oku.
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No. You really do have a reading comprehension problem, don't you? I said that Poole had outperformed Oku in the only apples to apples comparison that you and I have access to... their limited playing time this year.

Highly ranked recruiting classes = historically better teams in the future. Low ranked classes = historically not as good.
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Historically speaking... the All SEC team is usually full of guys who were 3* players and has some 2* players mixed in. I'm not arguing that in general guys who get high rankings become better players. But there are numerous examples where lower rated guys significantly outperform higher ranked guys.

Dan Williams is a classic proof against what you are arguing. IMO there was no more "dominant" DT in the SEC this year. The guy at times was simply unblockable.... but he came in a 3* OL and didn't even start to emerge until last year.

You don't know that Poole or one of the others you disrespected won't do the same. In fact if they're given the opportunity... it is quite likely one or more of them will become great players.

I've already said I'm done arguing with you.
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And like I already said... wave your white flag and be done with it. You're wrong and it is pretty much as simple as that. The only question now is just how foolish your pride will make you look before you admit it or just quit.

When Tauren Poole transfers or sits on the bench... when these incoming freshmen start over Fulmer's players (like they have already started doing from the 2009 class).... maybe JUST MAYBE you will see my point.
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Again, I haven't made claims about what Poole will or won't do in the future. I simply said he was better than you've given him credit for and had outperformed Oku.

The rest of it has just been your habit of making straw man arguments because you know if you debate honestly your point fails.
 
#61
#61
MrBamSeydu said:
How many of those were from the 2008 class?
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Ummm, that's one of my points. You don't know that the players you wrote off can't follow the same path those 3* players followed.

You were very selective with those 3* players you chose weren't you?

What about Josh Hawkins, Todd Campbell, Nick Stephens, C.J. Fleming?
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Those players haven't contributed and may never contribute. I'd say Stephens starts next year and will play well. Fleming will be ST's and a quality back up. The other two... I doubt will help. OTOH, Donald hasn't contributed, has he? 5*'s and all. EJAW is gone as is Nuke. Sawtelle a 4* never contributed. Vinson, Morley,... How many examples of 4 and 5 star players do you want that didn't contribute?

And it isn't just UT... you can look at other rosters where 5*'s sink.
I mean we can compare 3* contributions all day long. It's easy at UT because we have so many thanks to Fulmer.
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Another one of my major points. You guys love to hate on Fulmer. He's gone. I said that he should have gotten a chance. He did. He failed. He's gone... and that's the way it should be.

Nonetheless, Fulmer the recruiter didn't fail. Fulmer the leader and strategist failed magnificently. He let Chavis get away with sitting in his office or fishing in the
Bahamas while he should have been recruiting. He hired Cut to plug the holes in a sinking ship without considering what that would do to recruiting.

In the old days, Fulmer and a couple of other good recruiters could get the job done. Those days are gone. You now need all hands on deck.

Can you tell me how many games they've won?
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In the same range as UGA that is chock full of 4 and 5 star players... and more than FSU or Clemson who also have more.

When we get better players, we will be a better team. If you disagree with that, you disagree with history and common sense. Therefore, again, haha... no point in arguing with you.
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I actually do disagree with that to an extent. Every team will recruit players that never contribute no matter what their ranking was. UF does. Bama does. USC does... everyone.

What UT needs more than anything is DEPTH of talent. They NEED the 10-15 contributors they'd have if those other 23 scholarship slots were filled with quality players. Better players will no doubt help but more players on the same plain as UT's current best players will help much more.
 
#62
#62
MrBamSeydu said:
What OL? haha. Any OL we had were already here. We are very thin at OL. I mean, do you really disagree with that? If so, I'll just suggest that you are simply wanting to argue with me. Everyone understands our OL depth is thin. Which is, again, my entire point.... Fulmer wasn't recruiting as well at the tail-end of his career. That is evident and cannot be argued. Don't understand where you're going with anything you're saying.
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I just think the thread is humorous because it's about the 800th one created on the same topic. The others didn't randomly throw pretty decent players under the bus, however.
 
#64
#64
If we are going to talk about Fulmer's recruiting class, should he and his staff get some credit for part of the 2009 class. Also, should we not look at the players that committed to the previous staff for 2009. Finally, why do you bother rating a recruiting class(2008) that has only been on the team for two years. A majority of that class has two to three years left at UT and we do not know what their accomplishments will be. Your points seem short sighted.
 
#65
#65
Ok look, we can sit here and point out 3* and 2* players that turned out to be better than expected.... 4* and 5* busts all day long..... but that's more the exception than it is the rule.

bottom line and my ENTIRE point for this thread:

UT's talent level slacked off at the end of Fulmer's tenure. That is a simple fact.

In no way am I saying the players on our team are horrible. If you play D-1 football ANYWHERE you have my respect. I think players like Rogan and Art Evans have played up to their talent level and have given us good productivity. But I would trade Art Evans right now for Lamarcus Joyner. I would trade Rogan right now for Milner. I understand the immediate drop off due to experience, but I also understand eventually those type of players would give us a competitive edge in talent against just about anyone. Combine that with good coaching and eventual experience and we'd be much better. Again, not saying we're terrible... we're good enough to be 7-5 or 8-4 (if you count the blocked fg loss to Bama). But personally, I want to be better than that.

What I am simply saying is that the current staff is recruiting better than Fulmer did at any point towards the end of his tenure. The 2010 class will be every bit as good as the 2007 class, if not much better. Hard to tell now. Again, recruiting can really only be judged in hindsight (which is what I'm doing with this thread regarding the 2006 and 2008 classes) but you people want to sit here and argue that we have all these great players and we're 12-19 over the last two years. I believe firmly that the current staff did more with less talent than Fulmer was able to, otherwise the record would be even worse.

We need an upgrade in OVERALL talent. Top to bottom. We need to recruit great every single year. We cannot have misses like 2006 and 2008. You can tell me how great those 3* players are all day long. But at the end of the day, they just aren't as good as the players Alabama and Florida have.

If you disagree with star ratings, that's perfectly fine. I don't blame you honestly.

But I'd rather take a page out of Pete Carrol, Urban Meyer, Mack Brown, and Nick Saban's book and finish at or near the top of every recruiting class. Lane Kiffin has said he's trying to get us to that point. Recruiting is key. 2006 and 2008 hurt us. I'm sorry but that's just a simple fact.
 
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#66
#66
Assistant coaches hurt...but Clawson is going to a bowl this year with Bowling Green. Not a bad job there!
 
#67
#67
And to the person who said something (I stopped reading his post mid-way through because it was ridiculous and I didn't even pay attention to who it was, nor will I at this point) about the ALL SEC team being made up of 3* players.....

You've gotta be kidding right?

Tebow, Spikes, J. Jones, E. Berry, Haden, Dunlap, Barron, Arenas, Mallett, McCoy, Hardesty, C. Jones, C. Culliver, Ingram, Cody, Hernandez, the Pouncey's, A.J. Green, etc etc etc.... all 4* or 5*

There are a few 3* this year but go back and do research. Don't count kickers and punters. Majority rules.

I don't know why I bother.
 
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#69
#69
WPAINE said:
Come on man, we have already been through this. Barring Special Teams returners in which it is common to start a freshman, 21 of the 22 starters this season (with everyone healthy) were Fulmer's players. Similarly, I would argue that most of the starters next year will be Fulmer's players:

Defense:
Martin
Hughes
Walker
Reveiz
Frazier
Thompson
Evans
Rogan
Waggner - maybe

Offense:
Stephens
Jones
Moore
Stocker
Douglas
Shaw
Pope - maybe
Brimfield

Not including the "maybe's" that is 15 of 22 and that is WITH 2008 being one of Fulmer's worst classes. All I'm trying to show is that while many people are enamored with the whole "play freshman because they were 5 stars" mentality, the truth is that a Senior in college is about the equivalent of a 4 or 5 star in HS.

And like I have already mentioned, I do not believe that Fulmer got lazy at the wheel. many people will disagree with me, but I assure you it is hard to assemble a good recruiting class WHEN YOUR ENTIRE OFFENSIVE STAFF LEAVES after the 2007 season (causing us to have a poor 2008 recruiting rank based on star rankings).
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I said incoming freshmen. As in.... incoming.... not already there freshmen.... but incoming.....


incoming....

OL's will start during the season at some point next year

Might as well add incoming "JUCO" players too... just so you aren't confused by what I mean.

Kiffin's players are starting to replace Fulmer's. Yes, it will happen. Ask Tauren Poole.

Kiffin's players will be contributing more than Fulmer's next year. That includes special teams, backup roles, whatever you want to bring up.

In 2011 (which is not next year, that's 2010, 2011 is the year after 2010) I think finding a Fulmer-signed player on the field will be about as hard as getting a point through your thick skull. Aaron Douglas for sure, because Kiffin changed his position. After that I don't know.
 
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#70
#70
I think people were just expecting to find a thread with a new point rather than one that's already been made somewhere in the region of 200 billion times.
 
#72
#72
kptvol said:
I think people were just expecting to find a thread with a new point rather than one that's already been made somewhere in the region of 200 billion times.
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Well, mr Guru. If a MOD wants to merge this they are more than welcome.

I've not seen a thread on this topic. Feel free to do so and have someone merge it.

The point still remains.
 
#75
#75
General Jack said:
Until we've fought through the lack of talent and depth he left, its relevant. He is responsible for the mess this program became over the last few years, and until Kiffin has 4 classes under his belt, fulmer will stiill have some responsibility for our results.
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:dance:
 
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