Furiosa: A Mad Max Saga

#26
#26
n_huffhines said:
I agree with all of this, and you are right there are other strong characters, but literally one man is good, one man becomes good, and then the rest of the men are either total victims or evil. There is a colony of feminist, empowered women who makeup the army of heroes. It's pretty fkn woke.
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I think that simplistic of a view describes a lot more movies than more people would be willing to accept as woke. Alien woke AF apparently. Ripley(s) is the one character who can do anything, rescues a female child (mom power) while the mostly male soldiers are cowards or ineffective.

to me its about how believable it all is as a story which makes something "woke". if they are having to force it, and male characters are just crappy characters regardless of good bad or other moral alignment, that is woke.

This was just good storytelling where most of the moral good characters just so happened to be female. I have no "woke" issue with that as a concept. they stayed true to the setting, while offering a more complex storyline that individual male beats off (intended) hundreds of other dudes to save the girl which just gets flat. and the best part they were "woke" with some of the best action scenes I have seen in a movie ever.
 
#27
#27
LouderVol said:
I think that simplistic of a view describes a lot more movies than more people would be willing to accept as woke. Alien woke AF apparently. Ripley(s) is the one character who can do anything, rescues a female child (mom power) while the mostly male soldiers are cowards or ineffective.

to me its about how believable it all is as a story which makes something "woke". if they are having to force it, and male characters are just crappy characters regardless of good bad or other moral alignment, that is woke.

This was just good storytelling where most of the moral good characters just so happened to be female. I have no "woke" issue with that as a concept. they stayed true to the setting, while offering a more complex storyline that individual male beats off (intended) hundreds of other dudes to save the girl which just gets flat. and the best part they were "woke" with some of the best action scenes I have seen in a movie ever.
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I haven't seen Furiosa but that's not how I viewed Ripley in Aliens. (or Alien for that matter) Ellen Ripley to me is the opposite of the woke/girl power/whatever thing. She's smart and resourceful but she's no genius. She's never presented a someone who could kick any guy she's around ass in a fight. She gets her bacon saved more than once by other people, usually men in fact. And she spends a lot of time in Alien/Aliens flat out terrified. One of my favorite character moments of anybody ever (not just Ripley) is the elevator scene in Aliens. She loads up and gets ready and you can see the determination. But once she's physically all geared up there's this brief pause (1:05 in the vid) that means everything. You get a lot more from it if you've see Alien. She went through hell and here she is, in hell again. She left a perfectly good ship that was ready to leave and instead is now on a elevator descending to monster central all while a nuclear blast is counting down. She closes her eyes, tilts her head back and tries to reign in every fiber of her being screaming NOT to do this...then her eyes snap open, she ignites the flame unit and it's game time...she's not leaving that little girl.



I think it helps a lot if you've seen the director's cut and you learn that Ripley had a daughter that lived her whole life and died while she was asleep in space between the first and second movie. Anyway...BIG Ripley fan here. That's how you make a female character that can be a badass and not just decide somebody is supposed to be a badass and we need to make it a female.
 
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#28
#28
LouderVol said:
I think that simplistic of a view describes a lot more movies than more people would be willing to accept as woke. Alien woke AF apparently. Ripley(s) is the one character who can do anything, rescues a female child (mom power) while the mostly male soldiers are cowards or ineffective.

to me its about how believable it all is as a story which makes something "woke". if they are having to force it, and male characters are just crappy characters regardless of good bad or other moral alignment, that is woke.

This was just good storytelling where most of the moral good characters just so happened to be female. I have no "woke" issue with that as a concept. they stayed true to the setting, while offering a more complex storyline that individual male beats off (intended) hundreds of other dudes to save the girl which just gets flat. and the best part they were "woke" with some of the best action scenes I have seen in a movie ever.
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I agree it is good storytelling, but like all the best storytelling, there is an underlying point.

They literally gave the leading man a muzzle. Trust me. It's what George Miller was going for. I read a whole book about the production (and I highly recommend it).

I think we are just in disagreement about when the label woke should apply, and for you it seems to be a matter of how in-your-face the message is.

For me, this is a continuation of the go woke, go broke discussion. People think wokeness ruins a piece of media when the truth is most Hollywood media has a woke morality to it, and we don't mind when it's done subtly with good writing, like this movie did.
 
#29
#29
hndog609 said:
I haven't seen Furiosa but that's not how I viewed Ripley in Aliens. (or Alien for that matter) Ellen Ripley to me is the opposite of the woke/girl power/whatever thing. She's smart and resourceful but she's no genius. She's never presented a someone who could kick any guy she's around ass in a fight. She gets her bacon saved more than once by other people, usually men in fact. And she spends a lot of time in Alien/Aliens flat out terrified. One of my favorite character moments of anybody ever (not just Ripley) is the elevator scene in Aliens. She loads up and gets ready and you can see the determination. But once she's physically all geared up there's this brief pause (1:05 in the vid) that means everything. You get a lot more from it if you've see Alien. She went through hell and here she is, in hell again. She left a perfectly good ship that was ready to leave and instead is now on a elevator descending to monster central all while a nuclear blast is counting down. She closes her eyes, tilts her head back and tries to reign in every fiber of her being screaming NOT to do this...then her eyes snap open, she ignites the flame unit and it's game time...she's not leaving that little girl.



I think it helps a lot if you've seen the director's cut and you learn that Ripley had a daughter that lived her whole life and died while she was asleep in space between the first and second movie. Anyway...BIG Ripley fan here. That's how you make a female character that can be a badass and not just decide somebody is supposed to be a badass and we need to make it a female.
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Furiosa isn't some superhero. she gets her but kicked by the male lead, captured/manipulated by the male lead, her life saved by the male lead. she pretty much dies and is barely holding it together throughout the movie so I don't see much of a difference.
 
#30
#30
n_huffhines said:
I agree it is good storytelling, but like all the best storytelling, there is an underlying point.

They literally gave the leading man a muzzle. Trust me. It's what George Miller was going for. I read a whole book about the production (and I highly recommend it).

I think we are just in disagreement about when the label woke should apply, and for you it seems to be a matter of how in-your-face the message is.

For me, this is a continuation of the go woke, go broke discussion. People think wokeness ruins a piece of media when the truth is most Hollywood media has a woke morality to it, and we don't mind when it's done subtly with good writing, like this movie did.
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I agree, we disagree on what is "woke". I don't think a female lead is enough.

him being muzzled fits in with the world. it was other men who muzzled him. and even once he is freed (by his own hand) he still doesn't say a whole lot. I am not sure how that is all twisted to be a woke point.

I guess all/some of the sex slaves getting their revenge is fairly "woke", but its not a forced point. Prisoners getting revenge on their oppressors is a pretty common trope in movies not considered woke.

I mean if the director meant it to be woke, whatever, it just seems like both sides have a pretty expansive definition of the phrase. I didn't away from the movie so I am fine with it.
 
#31
#31
LouderVol said:
Furiosa isn't some superhero. she gets her but kicked by the male lead, captured/manipulated by the male lead, her life saved by the male lead. she pretty much dies and is barely holding it together throughout the movie so I don't see much of a difference.
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I was rather addressing this:

LouderVol said:
I think that simplistic of a view describes a lot more movies than more people would be willing to accept as woke. Alien woke AF apparently. Ripley(s) is the one character who can do anything, rescues a female child (mom power) while the mostly male soldiers are cowards or ineffective.
Click to expand...
I may have just misunderstood where you were going but the boldened above just doesn't describe the movie to me. Ripley is no girl boss...she is an approachable character that is smart, resourceful and determined that just so happens to be a female. Maybe you were saying that some people, despite the above, would argue Aliens is "woke" for basically no other reason than the main protagonist is female? If so then, unfortunately, I'd have to agree they're out there.
 
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#32
#32
LouderVol said:
I agree, we disagree on what is "woke". I don't think a female lead is enough.

him being muzzled fits in with the world. it was other men who muzzled him. and even once he is freed (by his own hand) he still doesn't say a whole lot. I am not sure how that is all twisted to be a woke point.

I guess all/some of the sex slaves getting their revenge is fairly "woke", but its not a forced point. Prisoners getting revenge on their oppressors is a pretty common trope in movies not considered woke.

I mean if the director meant it to be woke, whatever, it just seems like both sides have a pretty expansive definition of the phrase. I didn't away from the movie so I am fine with it.
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Like I said, it's subtle and not every aspect of it has to be woke for the movie to have a woke undertone. He doesn't hit you over the head with it, but the movie is absolutely, intentionally feminist. An incredible amount of thought and detail went into this movie. He thought about it for literally 20 years. It took me a few viewings to notice the foot-sizing machine was the gas pedal, and it actually served an awesome function. How did he think of that? It's such a cool detail. Well, it's because he thought about it for 20 years.
 
#33
#33
hndog609 said:
I was rather addressing this:


I may have just misunderstood where you were going but the boldened above just doesn't describe the movie to me. Ripley is no girl boss...she is an approachable character that is smart, resourceful and determined that just so happens to be a female. Maybe you were saying that some people, despite the above, would argue Aliens is "woke" for basically no other reason than the main protagonist is female? If so then, unfortunately, I'd have to agree they're out there.
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I got similar vibes from both is my point.

awesome character who just happens to be female.
 
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#34
#34
LouderVol said:
Furiosa isn't some superhero. she gets her but kicked by the male lead, captured/manipulated by the male lead, her life saved by the male lead. she pretty much dies and is barely holding it together throughout the movie so I don't see much of a difference.
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She didn't get her butt kicked. She has 1 arm in the fight (machine arm was off) and Max starts with a gun and a hostage, and Furiosa almost wins the fight. That's not Marvel superhero stuff, but that's super real woman stuff.

Max is only in it for his own survival. She's saving people. She's too clever to be carjacked by Max. She wins him over to her cause. It's a symbiotic relationship. He doesn't survive this story without her either. What are we talking about here? The movie is about her. It's her rescue mission. He's Han Solo. He comes back to help because he was convinced by the bigger hero.

She literally gets stabbed while saving Max's life and driving the rig and she doesn't let go of him. This is super hero stuff. It's funny you talked about her suffering from the stab wound. Maybe you forgot how it happened?
 
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#35
#35
LouderVol said:
I got similar vibes from both is my point.

awesome character who just happens to be female.
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Very intentional, again.

The movie is good because you don't have to watch it in that light, but there are themes of sexual violence and corporate greed. It's pretty progressive/woke, just subtly done.
 
#36
#36
n_huffhines said:
She didn't get her butt kicked. She has 1 arm in the fight (machine arm was off) and Max starts with a gun and a hostage, and Furiosa almost wins the fight. That's not Marvel superhero stuff, but that's super real woman stuff.

Max is only in it for his own survival. She's saving people. She's too clever to be carjacked by Max. She wins him over to her cause. It's a symbiotic relationship. He doesn't survive this story without her either. What are we talking about here? The movie is about her. It's her rescue mission. He's Han Solo. He comes back to help because he was convinced by the bigger hero.

She literally gets stabbed while saving Max's life and driving the rig and she doesn't let go of him. This is super hero stuff. It's funny you talked about her suffering from the stab wound. Maybe you forgot how it happened?
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wins him over but he leaves at the end instead of joining her? and she ends up with a gun too in their fight.

he is right about the green land not being there, tells her its an empty desert and that her best bet is to return to whatever the fort/area was called. not sure how that is "her cause", after she gave up, and when the idea to return was all his.

i am not arguing that she isn't the lead character who has more influence, I just don't see the woke angle as being a major point. I would be really curious to hear how the director describes his version of "woke". and the biggest meme from the movie is him figuring out the naked woman calling for help is bait, that's a far line from him being the big dumb man that needs a woman to do anything.

she gets stabbed holding him while he is fighting a whole bunch of people, protecting her. he wasn't a helpless damsel in distress. and its her mechanical arm. hero stuff, but I wouldn't go super hero.

I just find it a weird argument to say its a woke story when the main quest is rescuing a bunch of women who couldn't do anything themselves.
 
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#38
#38
n_huffhines said:
JFC, dude. I can't with you. Stopped there
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backing out isn't your style.

at least want to respond to how the idea to return to the fort was his idea?

after her plan of going to the green land was confirmed to be wrong, something he was right about, and she had largely given up hope?
 
#39
#39
LouderVol said:
backing out isn't your style.

at least want to respond to how the idea to return to the fort was his idea?

after her plan of going to the green land was confirmed to be wrong, something he was right about, and she had largely given up hope?
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I don't understand what most of your points are. It seems like you're just trying to be a contrarian. She had a gun too? What is the point? You said she got her butt kicked. I explained how she didn't and you say, "she had a gun too at one point." So what? She still didn't get her butt-kicked. She barely lost what started as an unfair fight. It also doesn't matter if she loses a fight. She's still the hero because the story is about her.

He didn't stay at the Citadel at the end? What does that have to do with anything? That is a completely unimportant detail.

Every movie is about a protagonist who has to overcome an obstacle to gain a reward. It doesn't matter who has the idea to go back to the Citadel. That can be any character. The hero is the one on the quest. Max is a guy who came along unwittingly on the ride, and ends up regaining his humanity and doing heroic things.

Basically every movie has 8 beats. The plot doesn't really start until the hero makes a choice (the 3rd beat) that takes us to the fun and games. The choice is Furiosa escaping the citadel. The joyful defeat (8th beat) is when the hero doesn't get what he/she wanted, but still gets something. Furiosa wanted the green place. She ends up with the Citadel. She is the main character.
 
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#42
#42
Movie was awesome. Chris Hemsworth nailed it. My wife didn't enjoy it because it's more like Road Warrior than it is Fury Road in terms of disturbing content.
 
#43
#43
n_huffhines said:
I love that the mere presence of a female lead has these alpha males so bothered.

It's a fictional world, people. Gas is the most precious commodity, but all everybody does is drive in huge caravans of gas guzzlers. Max defies million to one odds and always survives. It's OK to make a female character with a huge mechanical arm into a tough girl boss.

Mad Max has been doing the girl boss thing since Thunderdome.
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Hey, I’m all in on any movie with Anya. I particularly like her work in horror/thriller movies.
 
#44
#44
n_huffhines said:
I don't understand what most of your points are. It seems like you're just trying to be a contrarian. She had a gun too? What is the point? You said she got her butt kicked. I explained how she didn't and you say, "she had a gun too at one point." So what? She still didn't get her butt-kicked. She barely lost what started as an unfair fight. It also doesn't matter if she loses a fight. She's still the hero because the story is about her.

He didn't stay at the Citadel at the end? What does that have to do with anything? That is a completely unimportant detail.

Every movie is about a protagonist who has to overcome an obstacle to gain a reward. It doesn't matter who has the idea to go back to the Citadel. That can be any character. The hero is the one on the quest. Max is a guy who came along unwittingly on the ride, and ends up regaining his humanity and doing heroic things.

Basically every movie has 8 beats. The plot doesn't really start until the hero makes a choice (the 3rd beat) that takes us to the fun and games. The choice is Furiosa escaping the citadel. The joyful defeat (8th beat) is when the hero doesn't get what he/she wanted, but still gets something. Furiosa wanted the green place. She ends up with the Citadel. She is the main character.
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RE: plot beats....no spoilers, but leave it to George Miller to get to the 3rd beat in the first 30" of the movie. 🤣
 
#47
#47
n_huffhines said:
I honestly don't know what people want from Hollywood. We were saying superhero movies overdid it but maybe we're just kinda done with action movies, period?

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It’s too expensive to go to the movies when you know it’s going to be on one of the streaming services in a few months.

Haters were cheering the demise of Disney last summer while turning a blind eye to the buildings crumbling around them everywhere.

Before the pandemic we were seeing 4-5 Billion dollar box offices per year. Then everyone got used to staying home and it takes a cultural phenomenon like Mario or Barbie to bring people out.
 
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#48
#48
BenGrimm said:
It’s too expensive to go to the movies when you know it’s going to be on one of the streaming services in a few months.

Haters were cheering the demise of Disney last summer while turning a blind eye to the buildings crumbling around them everywhere.

Before the pandemic we were seeing 4-5 Billion dollar box offices per year. Then everyone got used to staying home and it takes a cultural phenomenon like Mario or Barbie to bring people out.
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It’s not that expensive. I see all the movies I want for $13 a month. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
#50
#50
SycloneJoe said:
It’s not that expensive. I see all the movies I want for $13 a month. 🤷🏻‍♂️
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That’s not a bad deal I guess. How does that affect box office? Are you allowed to go see the blockbusters on opening weekend? I have a family of 5. Is that $13 x 5? But also is there really that many movies I want to go watch in the theater to make it worth it? As it is, if I take my wife and kids to a movie I’m looking at dropping $100 for about 2 hours of entertainment. Granted I wouldn’t take my kids to every movie I want to see but then those are also the ones I’m content to wait for.

People are paying for multiple streaming platforms and these movies are arriving within a few 90 days in some cases.

Really they need to start holding off for about a year to release them to streaming to make people feel like it’s too long to wait. At the same time people pay for the streaming services because the movies come quickly. They’ve kinda painted themselves into a corner.
 
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