Game Thread: #23/25 LADY VOLS VS. #8/8 MISSISSIPPI STATE

[OriginalCoach]

What game would we have won if horston didnt play as much???? I will wait...

As you said, it’s OTJ training so what damn difference does it make?

 

[Volfan2012]

And here is your problem in a nutshell. Horston was actually rated higher than Jackson. Both are true freshmen. Why is Jackson playing better? Coaching. It isn't a talent issue...

To add if it wasn't for Horston's massive amount of turnovers there wouldn't be a lot of difference in their actual stats. Jackson is at 14 ppg 4.0 rpg and 2 assists. Horston is 10.0 ppg 5.6 rpg and 5.1 assists. Horston has 103 turnovers and Jackson has 62. Also Howard of Kentucky was never even close to being rated a five star on those lists and she is better than both of them at least to this point. Those list serve a purpose to identify a lot of the best players, but they miss quite a few of the best as well.

 

[Darth_Vol]

Then again, with a entire college career to evaluate and all the resources available to NFL scouts, Tom Brady was drafted in the 2000 sixth round at #199 overall.

To put that in perspective, consider that the first round that year included such stalwarts as R. J. Sowall and Trung Canidate.

Just saying that evaluation services rely a lot upon projection. They're not an exact science.

Also, Jordan has been asked to shoulder a lot of responsibility by default that has sped up the process and sometimes placed her in unenviable positions by default. The weak early schedule seemed to be a good training ground, but it wasn't ideal preparation for having to play 38 minutes against Top Ten teams.

Except I don't think the evaluations were wrong in this case, Horston IS a better talent than Jackson. MSU played a weak early season schedule, their young players seem much better prepared for the rigors of the SEC. It isn't a talent issue. If MSU's players are playing better (and clearly they are) it's because Schaefer has done a much better job developing his team/players and putting them in positions to succeed.

Fans can keep making excuses for what Tennessee has and what they don't have, but to still be consistently turning the ball over 20+ times per game at this point of the season is inexcusable and falls on the coaching...

 

[Coach Jumper]

To add if it wasn't for Horston's massive amount of turnovers there wouldn't be a lot of difference in their actual stats. Jackson is at 14 ppg 4.0 rpg and 2 assists. Horston is 10.0 ppg 5.6 rpg and 5.1 assists. Horston has 103 turnovers and Jackson has 62. Also Howard of Kentucky was never even close to being rated a five star on those lists and she is better than both of them at least to this point. Those list serve a purpose to identify a lot of the best players, but they miss quite a few of the best as well.

Jordan is presently
3rd in scoring on our team
2nd in fg attempts
2nd in 3 pt fg attempts and makes
2nd in rebounds
1st in assists
2nd in blocks
1st in steals
1st in turnovers (ok, this one's not so good)
2nd in PF's
3rd in minutes played
4th on asst/to with a poisitive 1.11 to 1.00 ratio..114 Asists against 103 TO's
On one of the most prestigious programs in the country

Terrible, simply terrible.
Maybe she will turn the corner and get good someday

 

[Creekdog]

that’s not true @ all. tennessee is known outside of tn, don’t reach that far. this team started falling down the last couple years so it might take a year or two to crawl out of that hole. Many TN fans are very impatient and don’t like to wait.

Known? Yes. Historically relevant? Absolutely. Currently relevant? Not very. Will take more than a season or two to get back.

 

[volnationnj]

Jordan is presently
3rd in scoring on our team
2nd in fg attempts
2nd in 3 pt fg attempts and makes
2nd in rebounds
1st in assists
2nd in blocks
1st in steals
1st in turnovers (ok, this one's not so good)
2nd in PF's
3rd in minutes played
4th on asst/to with a poisitive 1.11 to 1.00 ratio..114 Asists against 103 TO's
On one of the most prestigious programs in the country

Terrible, simply terrible.
Maybe she will turn the corner and get good someday

I agree with you here coach.
For a freshman point guard, in the SEC, outside of the turnovers, she's doing well.
Allow me to repeat that:
Folks, she's a freshman point guard in the SEC, guiding a top 25 team, while playing 30 minutes a game !!
All of us would like her to reduce her turnovers, and she will.
But I'm afraid we'll have to wait until next year.

 

[mike099]

Who knows my theory is, and of course I know you think it's wrong, we'll say that in advance even though I know you will have to repeat it in another post. I think that all Jackson has to do is play the off guard and shoot the ball. Jackson has no other responsibilities on her team. She is in a no pressure freshman. Horston has been cast in the role of making the offense work or a team leader. I think that is a lot of pressure on a freshman. I also don't think at this time in her career should be playing a key position like point guard. The reason she plays there is out of necessity we have no one else except Massengill and she can't go 40 minutes at that position.

Yes, go back to Westbrook and Hayes freshman season. They shared the Point position and both struggled with turnovers. The program has got to get in a position of not having to start freshmen Or freshmen playing a lot of minutes at point. Westbrook and Hayes were probably exhausted, physically and mentally after the freshman season.

the good thing is next year, the two freshmen will probably be able to ease into the playing time and not thrown in the frying pan.

 

[creekdipper]

Except I don't think the evaluations were wrong in this case, Horston IS a better talent than Jackson. MSU played a weak early season schedule, their young players seem much better prepared for the rigors of the SEC. It isn't a talent issue. If MSU's players are playing better (and clearly they are) it's because Schaefer has done a much better job developing his team/players and putting them in positions to succeed.

Fans can keep making excuses for what Tennessee has and what they don't have, but to still be consistently turning the ball over 20+ times per game at this point of the season is inexcusable and falls on the coaching...

We all rue the turnovers. They're on everyone's mind. It was the first thing Mickey Dearstone brought up today on the Harper Show.

But I think we're overlooking the value of experience and playing together in a winning culture at high levels. That's why Oregon could defeat Team USA made up of pros and future Hall of Famers.

If it was all about coaching and talent, how does Connecticut with two Wooden Watch playets and a coach with 11 NC lose at home by 18 points? Experience matters...a lot.

Schaefer is an outstanding coach. But he has players who have practiced daily against athletes who appeared in two title games. They've had the same coach and the same philisophies since they've been at Miss St.

Compare that to the debacle our returning players have been through along with the upheaval, transfers, etc. We start three players who didn't play last year, and only have one scorer back from last year.

That's not excusing the turnovers or lack of a coherent, consistent offense. But unless someone can show that excessive turnovers are a common trait of Harper-coached teams...and there are three previous programs to mine for data...then it goes beyond coaching.

 

[creekdipper]

I will say this about Kellie's post-game remarls. She mentioned that "the game plan" was working in the first quarter. In all honesty, it seemed that the game plan was Rae Against the World. There weren't many assists for the entire game, and a team normally can't sustain a one-person offense and come out with a win (although we have let other teams beat us that way).

 

[Nute Gunray]

Does Ms State really have more talent than we have?

They do not.

 

[Nute Gunray]

We all rue the turnovers. They're on everyone's mind. It was the first thing Mickey Dearstone brought up today on the Harper Show.

But I think we're overlooking the value of experience and playing together in a winning culture at high levels. That's why Oregon could defeat Team USA made up of pros and future Hall of Famers.

If it was all about coaching and talent, how does Connecticut with two Wooden Watch playets and a coach with 11 NC lose at home by 18 points? Experience matters...a lot.

Schaefer is an outstanding coach. But he has players who have practiced daily against athletes who appeared in two title games. They've had the same coach and the same philisophies since they've been at Miss St.

Compare that to the debacle our returning players have been through along with the upheaval, transfers, etc. We start three players who didn't play last year, and only have one scorer back from last year.

That's not excusing the turnovers or lack of a coherent, consistent offense. But unless someone can show that excessive turnovers are a common trait of Harper-coached teams...and there are three previous programs to mine for data...then it goes beyond coaching.

Very fair analysis, creekdipper. The only thing I will say though is UConn is not the UConn of the past as for as talent level is concerned. I believe this is why they lost to Oregon.

 

[Darth_Vol]

Schaefer is an outstanding coach. But he has players who have practiced daily against athletes who appeared in two title games. They've had the same coach and the same philisophies since they've been at Miss St.

I guess Notre Dame didn't get that memo.

Compare that to the debacle our returning players have been through along with the upheaval, transfers, etc. We start three players who didn't play last year, and only have one scorer back from last year.

That's not excusing the turnovers or lack of a coherent, consistent offense. But unless someone can show that excessive turnovers are a common trait of Harper-coached teams...and there are three previous programs to mine for data...then it goes beyond coaching.

Yes I've heard the excuses. They may have had some validity in November and December. But when we're well into February and we've seen NO improvement, that's a coaching issue. Every team has warts, good coaches figure out work around them and minimize their impact...

 

[Coach Jumper]

...Yes I've heard the excuses. They may have had some validity in November and December. But when we're well into February and we've seen NO improvement, that's a coaching issue. Every team has warts, good coaches figure out work around them and minimize their impact...

Every team also hits road-bumps that they have to work through,,,Coach K will seek counsel and get through to them in time. At least "I" think so

 

[Nute Gunray]

Every team also hits road-bumps that they have to work through,,,Coach K will seek counsel and get through to them in time. At least "I" think so

Is it better to say, "I hope so", Coach Jumper?

 

[Nute Gunray]

I guess Notre Dame didn't get that memo.



Yes I've heard the excuses. They may have had some validity in November and December. But when we're well into February and we've seen NO improvement, that's a coaching issue. Every team has warts, good coaches figure out work around them and minimize their impact...

Your comments sting, Darth_Vol, but they are true, unfortunately.

 

[JustaChicken]

Like I've told everyone here look at Schaeffer and Dawns first three seasons took them that long to win at a rate were winning at now. Both had two losing or subpar seasons their first two as coach.

You can't be serious. Your coach was gift wrapped 3 or 4 McDonald's AA's when she took over the Lady vols job. Dawn didn't have not one AA when she took over at South Carolina, so of course it took her a few years to get the ball rolling.

It's no comparing the two situations.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Is it better to say, "I hope so", Coach Jumper?

Not in this case, Nute...I have to go with my gut and my gut says I was right when I backed the bringing on of Coach K,,,and it says I still believe in her

 

[creekdipper]

You can't be serious. Your coach was gift wrapped 3 or 4 McDonald's AA's when she took over the Lady vols job. Dawn didn't have not one AA when she took over at South Carolina, so of course it took her a few years to get the ball rolling.

It's no comparing the two situations.

Uh...Kellie has already won seven SEC games with plenty remaining. Dawn won 2. So, even attributing the extra wins to McAA's, it appears that Kellie's doing pretty well.

And the 3-4 AA's we have include a player out for the seadon, a freshman, and a player who wouldn't start for most SEC teams except Ole Miss.

If you think it's all about talent, look at what GG did when she left Duke for Texas. In her five seasons there, they only got past the first round of the NCAAs in her first year. One and done after that.

 

[glv98]

Just over half the LVs turnovers have been committed by three players - Davis, Burrell and Horston. Jordan has about the same amount of t.o.s as Davis and Burrell combined and is responsible for a full quarter of the LV t.o. total. This is a big problem. If we want to address the t.o. plague which everyone and their granny has carried on over, it has to start with Jordan.

I appreciate what Horston has contributed and I understand alot has been asked of her in a hurry. But the flip side of that is she has played a ton of minutes and gathered a lot of experience she would not have gotten coming off the bench. I don't see improvement that should be starting to show with this amount of playing time and it worries me. I don't think it flips like a switch either. It's gradual steps forward and I'm not seeing Jordan making them yet.

Forgive me if I'm over-sensitive about lack of player development but the LVs have put me through alot. I'm generally happy with what KJH has brought and do see improvement in many areas. But she just has to get them over this hump of shaky, inconsistent offense and excessive sloppy ball handling. She has said we don't have that far to go but we have the hardest part still left to go and I think that nails it.

 

[Chippo]

Kamara must know that she can get away with that since she's an indispensable part of the rotation.

I don't know but if one person gets away with
It and other players see it team discipline could go out TBA. I believe that if it was
serious enough she should be benched for a
Couple of games. Just simple respect you don't try to walk off when someone is talking
to you. Granted none of us knows what the
incident was maybe it wasn't that bad???
However if it was team discipline could get
away from coach Harper. JMO then it would
be impossible to get back.

 

[Amb3096]

I don't know but if one person gets away with
It and other players see it team discipline could go out TBA. I believe that if it was
serious enough she should be benched for a
Couple of games. Just simple respect you don't try to walk off when someone is talking
to you. Granted none of us knows what the
incident was maybe it wasn't that bad???
However if it was team discipline could get
away from coach Harper. JMO then it would
be impossible to get back.

I'm being facetious. Kam is at the very end of the bench. She's no Rennia. If I'm KJH, I'm sitting her for a few games until she gets some perspective and learns to accept some coaching.

 

[Volfan2012]

You can't be serious. Your coach was gift wrapped 3 or 4 McDonald's AA's when she took over the Lady vols job. Dawn didn't have not one AA when she took over at South Carolina, so of course it took her a few years to get the ball rolling.

It's no comparing the two situations.

Actually she didn't do anything for three seasons that coach Kellie has done in her first. We don't have three four AA's we have players that were rated AA's and half are not upperclassmen. Our bench is one of the worst in the SEC. Hype all you want Dawn took three years to get to where Kellie is now. Schaeffer actually had a good year his third year and fourth a little better. I am deadly serious as to the record she has produced with a new system and only two effective players. I'll even give Dawn a pass in year one when she went 2 and 12 in the SEC, but in the next two seasons 7 and 9 and 8 and 8 and even in the fourth 10 and 6 and in the fifth 11 and 5. So you want to start the BS the stats don't lie. First five years SEC finish 11th, 7th, tie for 5th, tie for 4th, tie for 4th so there you go. First five seasons SEC record 38 and 40. Schaeffer SEC 5 and 11 first year, 5 and 11 second year, 11 and 5 third year, 11 and 5 fourth year. 32 and 32 in the SEC first four seasons. I bet Kellie beats both those records easily in her first three years.

 

[Volfan2012]

I'm being facetious. Kam is at the very end of the bench. She's no Rennia. If I'm KJH, I'm sitting her for a few games until she gets some perspective and learns to accept some coaching.

I'd probably be even worse I wouldn't play her anymore this season she would be done. I would give Emily a shot don't see how she could do any worse.

 

[Coach Jumper]

I'd probably be even worse I wouldn't play her anymore this season she would be done. I would give Emily a shot don't see how she could do any worse.

Coach K has her reasons for playing who she plays and not doing so.
It cold be a practice thing, could be attitude, could be work-ethic, could be an unknown injury,,,could be most anything. It could be Coach K's decision, it could even be Emily's decision...WE DON'T KNOW...But there is a reason for what all coaches do per player. Being a coach, I whisper to my players in there ears and let them know things they should know. If they reveal what I say, they lose any chance of keeping my trust.

We don't know what, if anything happened with the sideline "interaction" with Kamera...We don't know what Coach K says to the refs when they blatantly miss or make bad calls...We don't know what her assistants tell her or what she tells them,,,we don't know exactly if/how Al Brown affects her decisions...We don't know.

And we shouldn't know.

The mistake that CHW made was she was so readable and publicly confused in pressers that we knew.

There is a reason for Emily not getting minutes, you can bank on that.
What they are?...We don't know.

 

[volnationnj]

Actually she didn't do anything for three seasons that coach Kellie has done in her first. We don't have three four AA's we have players that were rated AA's and half are not upperclassmen. Our bench is one of the worst in the SEC. Hype all you want Dawn took three years to get to where Kellie is now. Schaeffer actually had a good year his third year and fourth a little better. I am deadly serious as to the record she has produced with a new system and only two effective players. I'll even give Dawn a pass in year one when she went 2 and 12 in the SEC, but in the next two seasons 7 and 9 and 8 and 8 and even in the fourth 10 and 6 and in the fifth 11 and 5. So you want to start the BS the stats don't lie. First five years SEC finish 11th, 7th, tie for 5th, tie for 4th, tie for 4th so there you go. First five seasons SEC record 38 and 40. Schaeffer SEC 5 and 11 first year, 5 and 11 second year, 11 and 5 third year, 11 and 5 fourth year. 32 and 32 in the SEC first four seasons. I bet Kellie beats both those records easily in her first three years.

I'm in the middle on this one.
No doubt Dawn started at a much lower level than Kellie has. However, I think Kellie has done about as well as could reasonably be expected in her first year.
Guiding this team, which lost a starter to injury and has had to start a freshman at point guard, to 3rd place in the SEC is an accomplishment.
Dawn's work at SC is impressive. As noted by Volfan2012, she improved their SEC record in each of their first 5 years.
The true test will be to see how Kellie does in the next few years.
Let her recruit the players that she wants and then we'll know what kind of coach she is.
But, so far, so good, as far as Kellie's coaching is concerned.