Gay marriage debate

#51
#51
KoachKrab127 said:
Conservatives say that the federal government is interfering with their freedom if they allow gay marriage. According to the guy I debated in the OP, since the US Constitution says nothing about marriage, it should be left up to the states to make laws on marriage. However, since some states are now allowing gay marriage, if a gay couple gets married in one state and then moves to another state that has a law against gay marriage, the couple is "forcing" gay marriage on that state. They don't like it and are asking for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage to "protect their freedom."

It is completely backwards and crazy in my opinion. I still think gay marriage will be legal in all states in about 15-20 years.
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Here's the thing, as it stands currently, if some people are allowed to exercise freedom, it will limit the freedom of others. If gays are allowed to marry, then it will force other people to accommodate it. As I gave in an earlier example, if I own a business and give benefits, I would be forced to give those benefits to people that I don't think are legitimately married. That is fact. You can argue the point of view that I am being a bigot, but you can't argue that my freedom to choose to deny marriage benefits to gay employees has been trampled. The only way to give the gay peeps their full freedoms and still not infringe on the freedoms of other peeps is to stop government licensing of marriage altogether.

(The idea of a license is an abridgment in any case. To be licensed means you can be denied a license. That means you don't have a right to do something, you have permission to do something. Rights are defined as being things that you don't need anyone's permission or askance to exercise.)
 
#54
#54
KiffinKiller said:
That sounds great. Your freedom to deny benefits to gays has been trampled.
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So you are only happy with people exercising their freedom when they do so in a manner approved of by you? Do you have a list somewhere of what is and isn't an acceptable use of freedom? Explain to me please which parts of the constitution doesn't apply to which things you don't like so I can make sure I avoid them and do what I am told like a good little robot.
 
#55
#55
RespectTradition said:
So you are only happy with people exercising their freedom when they do so in a manner approved of by you? Do you have a list somewhere of what is and isn't an acceptable use of freedom? Explain to me please which parts of the constitution doesn't apply to which things you don't like so I can make sure I avoid them and do what I am told like a good little robot.
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Hypocrite much?
 
#57
#57
no one should give two flying rips about two dudes wanting to shack up. my maun pount is yet again giving up freedom and letting govt decide what is marriage.......batshat crazy!
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#59
#59
Jaytrain5 said:
Do you choose to be attracted to women, or is it just natural for you?
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Natural I believe but the fact that I'm anatomically and physiologically compatible with women or maybe the that I'm following my natural instinct to reproduce with a female probably has a lot to do with that.
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#60
#60
Cdywolfe said:
Natural I believe but the fact that I'm anatomically and physiologically compatible with women or maybe the that I'm following my natural instinct to reproduce with a female probably has a lot to do with that.
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I'd say science and genetics is a lot more complex than you're making it out to be.
 
#61
#61
KiffinKiller said:
I'd say science and genetics is a lot more complex than you're making it out to be.
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There's no doubt it is. The truth is I doubt we'll ever know for sure if it's nature or nurture. All I know is I know of too many people who are gay due to environmental factors (rape, molestation, abuse, ect...) to think it's genetic.
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#62
#62
Cdywolfe said:
There's no doubt it is. The truth is I doubt we'll ever know for sure if it's nature or nurture. All I know is I know of too many people who are gay due to environmental factors (rape, molestation, abuse, ect...) to think it's genetic.
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even if that were always true, shouldn't they be allowed to live their life as they see fit without the govt discriminating against them?
 
#63
#63
utvolpj said:
even if that were always true, shouldn't they be allowed to live their life as they see fit without the govt discriminating against them?
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But if the government gives them more rights, they are trampling the rights of TT to discriminate against them. UNFAIR!
 
#64
#64
KiffinKiller said:
But if the government gives them more rights, they are trampling the rights of TT to discriminate against them. UNFAIR!
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People should be allowed to discriminate. It's part of living in a free society. Government should not be allowed to discriminate.
 
#67
#67
utvolpj said:
even if that were always true, shouldn't they be allowed to live their life as they see fit without the govt discriminating against them?
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Yes. They should have every right that everyone else has. With regard to marriage... they already do. They can go out and have any kind of religious or civil ceremony they want to have. They can convince the people of various states to change marriage license laws.

What they cannot do nor have a right to do is obtain a license in contradiction to the requirements set forth by the people of a given state. EVERY license has qualifications. If you believe homosexuals should not be disqualified then work through your legislature to change your state's law. However NO ONE disputes that a marriage license should have qualifications and limitations. I suspect almost all homosexuals would oppose marriage to someone under age, to an animal, to a close family member, to a dead person,...

The argument that homosexuals have a "right" to marry is without merit.
 
#68
#68
and there's the "but they'll start marrying their dog" argument.

And no, they do not enjoy the same rights as you and me
 
#69
#69
VOLatile said:
You just discredited the entire civil rights movement.
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Probably deservedly so. I am by no stretch advocating racial discrimination much less abuse. However in many respects the remedies have had terrible unintended consequences. It would have been MUCH better had the civil rights movement been purely social rather than political. People do not resent what they are convinced to do voluntarily because it is "just". They do often resent what they are forced to do regardless of whether it is just or not.
 
#70
#70
utvolpj said:
and there's the "but they'll start marrying their dog" argument.

And no, they do not enjoy the same rights as you and me
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I love it - acting like letting homosexuals marry is the beginning of a slippery slope to beastiality and legal incest.
 
#71
#71
utvolpj said:
and there's the "but they'll start marrying their dog" argument.

And no, they do not enjoy the same rights as you and me
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Yes. They do. NO ONE. Not you. Not me. NO ONE.... has a "right" to a LICENSE issued by the state. We either qualify or we don't. By the very definition of "license" it is a permission to do something with benefits. Rights are not subject to government's "permission" to use them.
 
#72
#72
KiffinKiller said:
I love it - acting like letting homosexuals marry is the beginning of a slippery slope to beastiality and legal incest.
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I didn't say that. I said that a state has a right to qualify license... go ahead and build those straw men though... it just demonstrates that you are wrong and know it.

Like I said. If you think homosexual unions should be enddorsed by the state and granted the "PRIVILEGES" associated with a marriage license then convince your neighbors and pass a change into law.
 
#73
#73
sjt18 said:
Yes. They do. NO ONE. Not you. Not me. NO ONE.... has a "right" to a LICENSE issued by the state. We either qualify or we don't. By the very definition of "license" it is a permission to do something with benefits. Rights are not subject to government's "permission" to use them.
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and what is their reason for disqualification? Because some book says it's wrong? Absolutely insane to deny people the same rights and access because of that. It's discrimination by the govt plain and simple and you actively endorse it

and your state arguments fall apart when the feds do the same
 
#74
#74
It's people like SJT that stand in the way of getting the laws/requirements changed. Yet they tell you to go out and work to get it changed. It's like some stupid game.

And no, I don't believe in a personal right to discriminate based solely on gender, race, or sexual preference...
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#75
#75
VOLatile said:
It's people like SJT that stand in the way of getting the laws/requirements changed. Yet they tell you to go out and work to get it changed. It's like some stupid game.

And no, I don't believe in a personal right to discriminate based solely on gender, race, or sexual preference...
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personal right? I do but it should never be done by the govt
 
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