Gay Sex in Humpback Whales?

#53
#53
The “it’s natural” argument has always been the worst argument. We should ask “is it optimal”

Rape, murder, theft, incest, these are all natural things that occur in the animal kingdom
 
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#54
#54
Vol8188 said:
The “it’s natural” argument has always been the worst argument. We should ask “is it optimal”

Rape, murder, theft, incest, these are all natural things that occur in the animal kingdom
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The “it’s natural” argument is usually in response to the “it’s unnatural” charge.
 
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#55
#55
85SugarVol said:
The “it’s natural” argument is usually in response to the “it’s unnatural” charge.
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If so, fair enough. The argument of “homosexuality is unnatural”, is for sure a dumb one. But we should never defend an act based on it being “natural”.
 
#56
#56
Vol8188 said:
The “it’s natural” argument has always been the worst argument. We should ask “is it optimal”

Rape, murder, theft, incest, these are all natural things that occur in the animal kingdom
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Then natural argument is in response to people who claim it's a choice
 
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#62
#62
volfanhill said:
Sure. But do you ever remember making that choice? I don't. I've just always been attracted to women. I never chose to be straight. Therefore I believe most gay people never chose to be gay.
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There will always be those looking to “try something out” - But yes, I do believe the vast majority never chose it and are simply born being attracted to the same sex.
 
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#63
#63
volfanhill said:
Sure. But do you ever remember making that choice? I don't. I've just always been attracted to women. I never chose to be straight. Therefore I believe most gay people never chose to be gay.
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I don’t believe men intend to be more violent than women either, but I still disagree with the act. Just because something is in your nature doesn’t mean you should
 
#64
#64
volfanhill said:
Sure. But do you ever remember making that choice? I don't. I've just always been attracted to women. I never chose to be straight. Therefore I believe most gay people never chose to be gay.
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Do you feel the same about those that say they are attracted to kids?
 
#66
#66
Vol8188 said:
The “it’s natural” argument has always been the worst argument. We should ask “is it optimal”

Rape, murder, theft, incest, these are all natural things that occur in the animal kingdom
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Won't work. The argument of "hey I acknowledge this is natural for you, but it's not 'optimal' for me/us so you should go against your nature" is probably not compelling to anyone
 
#69
#69
NashVol11 said:
Won't work. The argument of "hey I acknowledge this is natural for you, but it's not 'optimal' for me/us so you should go against your nature" is probably not compelling to anyone
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Going with your nature is what leads to rape, incest, violence, etc. So yes, I’d recommend people make “optimal” choices, rather than going with their “nature”.
 
#70
#70
Vol8188 said:
Going with your nature is what leads to rape, incest, violence, etc. So yes, I’d recommend people make “optimal” choices, rather than going with their “nature”.
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Also love, marriage, friendship, etc. Right? We have laws preventing those things you mentioned, do you think it should be illegal to be gay?
 
#71
#71
NashVol11 said:
Also love, marriage, friendship, etc. Right? We have laws preventing those things you mentioned, do you think it should be illegal to be gay?
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No one said it should be illegal to be gay nor to perform homosexual acts.

Sure, love and friendship are natural. They’re also typically optimal things. We shouldn’t confuse everything that’s natural as being optimal. That’s the difference here.


And no, marriage is not a natural thing. But it is an optimal thing
 
#72
#72
Vol8188 said:
Going with your nature is what leads to rape, incest, violence, etc. So yes, I’d recommend people make “optimal” choices, rather than going with their “nature”.
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What exactly is sub-optimal of innate homosexuals acting on their sexuality?
 
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#73
#73
PKT_VOL said:
What exactly is sub-optimal of innate homosexuals acting on their sexuality?
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Increased risks of sti, increased incidents of domestic violence, increased infidelity. And a lack of offspring
 
#74
#74
Vol8188 said:
Increased risks of sti, increased incidents of domestic violence, increased infidelity. And a lack of offspring
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The first two are consequences of promiscuity, regardless of whether said promiscuity being heterosexual or homosexual.

The last one, especially in modern times, effects both homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. As such, both groups use artificial means to overcome that sub-optimal problem.
 
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#75
#75
PKT_VOL said:
The first two are consequences of promiscuity, regardless of whether said promiscuity being heterosexual or homosexual.

The last one, especially in modern times, effects both homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. As such, both groups use artificial means to overcome that sub-optimal problem.
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Homosexual promiscuity (men who have sex with men) do have increased risks of STDs. That’s not merely an equal consequence of promiscuity in general.

If you do want to simply blame STDs and violence on promiscuity you also have to accept that promiscuity is higher within this population.

You seem to be ignoring rates throughout all of your arguments here, across the board. Sure, some heterosexual couples struggle to reproduce. But that’s a different thing and less likely.
 
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