GM declaring bankruptcy..

#28
#28
orangeblooded2 said:
When all else fails attack the poster.

Also a standard response by someone uniformed, like you.
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The only thing that fails, are the companies that are stupid enough to use union labor.
You have no clue as to my knowledge of union operations. So, say whatever makes you feel better about your "brothers".
(by the way, nice post as to attacking when you have nothing else to say, pot....meet kettle)
 
#31
#31
GAVol said:
Actually he attacked the comment; not the poster.

Then ironically you replied by attacking the poster.
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T-TownVol said:
The only thing that fails, are the companies that are stupid enough to use union labor.
You have no clue as to my knowledge of union operations. So, say whatever makes you feel better about your "brothers".
(by the way, nice post as to attacking when you have nothing else to say, pot....meet kettle)
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Just pointing out all the attacks or retribution due to an unpopular opinion or stance on unions.All having nothing to due with anything constructive to the subject.You disagree fine,great even.It's your opinion and your entitle to it.
Your pack mentality is evident in every post of disagreement on the subject.Spelling,grammar corrections. Stating anything to punish an opinion,All because of your own failures to allow an opinion that does not fall into a category of single mindedness that is exhibited with 75 % of all those who post in the political forum.
Congratulations,You have a nice little pat yourself and each other on the back society.Where if another's opinion is different than yours,you take nothing from it other that to see it as an assault on your perceived Collect,hive minded society.
I think it important to state that I only respond in such manner,after being asailed for an opinion.Rather than an approach more like a debate structure.
Prehaps it's asking to much to have your opinion consider relavant to a subject when you have experienced the subject first hand.
 
#33
#33
orangeblooded2 said:
Just pointing out all the attacks or retribution due to an unpopular opinion or stance on unions.All having nothing to due with anything constructive to the subject.You disagree fine,great even.It's your opinion and your entitle to it.
Your pack mentality is evident in every post of disagreement on the subject.Spelling,grammar corrections. Stating anything to punish an opinion,All because of your own failures to allow an opinion that does not fall into a category of single mindedness that is exhibited with 75 % of all those who post in the political forum.
Congratulations,You have a nice little pat yourself and each other on the back society.Where if another's opinion is different than yours,you take nothing from it other that to see it as an assault on your perceived Collect,hive minded society.
I think it important to state that I only respond in such manner,after being asailed for an opinion.Rather than an approach more like a debate structure.
Prehaps it's asking to much to have your opinion consider relavant to a subject when you have experienced the subject first hand.
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A pro-union opinion calling others a "pack mentality", that is rich.
(by the way, I have "first hand" experience with unions also)
 
#34
#34
orangeblooded2 said:
Just pointing out all the attacks or retribution due to an unpopular opinion or stance on unions.All having nothing to due with anything constructive to the subject.You disagree fine,great even.It's your opinion and your entitle to it.
Your pack mentality is evident in every post of disagreement on the subject.Spelling,grammar corrections. Stating anything to punish an opinion,All because of your own failures to allow an opinion that does not fall into a category of single mindedness that is exhibited with 75 % of all those who post in the political forum.
Congratulations,You have a nice little pat yourself and each other on the back society.Where if another's opinion is different than yours,you take nothing from it other that to see it as an assault on your perceived Collect,hive minded society.
I think it important to state that I only respond in such manner,after being asailed for an opinion.Rather than an approach more like a debate structure.
Prehaps it's asking to much to have your opinion consider relavant to a subject when you have experienced the subject first hand.
Click to expand...

Aren't you doing what you suggest the majority of the forum does? Man-up, don't take it personally and stick by your opinion.
 
#37
#37
T-TownVol said:
A pro-union opinion calling others a "pack mentality", that is rich.
(by the way, I have "first hand" experience with unions also)
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As relative to this board.
Outside the boundaries of this board yes,it is.

Relate your experiences,if you chose to do so.
 
#39
#39
T-TownVol said:
You first.
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I will restate what i have previously posted before.I served 5(five) years as a union rep (shop steward).An experience I will never repeat.I witnessed the power and omnipotence that is corporate America.Matter of fact i am still paying a price for the attempt to serve my fellow man.
 
#40
#40
orangeblooded2 said:
I will restate what i have previously posted before.I served 5(five) years as a union rep (shop steward).An experience I will never repeat.I witnessed the power and omnipotence that is corporate America.Matter of fact i am still paying a price for the attempt to serve my fellow man.
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I was in low level management at a manufacturing facility that employed 550 union workers. The plant was shut down because of the union boss, and his advise to the union, to reject a contract offer. I grew up with those people and tried to get through to them that the ownership was serious about shutting down. Most of those peolple now work jobs for half of what they were offered. They were "served" poorly by the people they elected to look out for their best interest.
 
#41
#41
T-TownVol said:
I was in low level management at a manufacturing facility that employed 550 union workers. The plant was shut down because of the union boss, and his advise to the union, to reject a contract offer. I grew up with those people and tried to get through to them that the ownership was serious about shutting down. Most of those peolple now work jobs for half of what they were offered. They were "served" poorly by the people they elected to look out for their best interest.
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Unfortunately when they say a union is only as good as the people in it.It is indisputably the truth.

What was the timeline as far as years ago?

Things have changed so much as far as resources shared and the interconnectivity of unions.In the past 15years or so things have changed so much as to getting good people at the district and national level,more lawyers,go figure.
 
#42
#42
It's an interesting question - do unions help or hurt workers. Clearly they are meant to help. I have limited experiences as a union member (less than a year) and non-union member in a job with multiple unions (2 years).

How they hurt: My experiences show that unions introduce inefficiencies into work flow (relative to non-union shops) by job protection, seniority rules, avoidance of cross-training, etc. We see that the negotiating power of unions such as the UAW creates a cost disadvantages relative to non-union shops. As a result, the company may be hampered by it's union and be less competitive. While jobs are protected, the company may not succeed as much as it could (creating new jobs) or may ultimately lose market position.

How they help: Representation and a check to abusive management. Clearly these are important functions. To me the question is are there better (or at least as effective) means to provide these functions. Regulations such as OSHA and EEOC have taken on a large part of what unions were needed for in the past.

Bottomline, I don't have a problem with workers organizing but I think sometimes that organization actually works against the members best interests.
 
#43
#43
orangeblooded2 said:
Unfortunately when they say a union is only as good as the people in it.It is indisputably the truth.

What was the timeline as far as years ago? 10
Things have changed so much as far as resources shared and the interconnectivity of unions.In the past 15years or so things have changed so much as to getting good people at the district and national level,more lawyers,go figure.
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kind of nullifies the arguement doesn't it
 
#44
#44
volinbham said:
It's an interesting question - do unions help or hurt workers. Clearly they are meant to help. I have limited experiences as a union member (less than a year) and non-union member in a job with multiple unions (2 years).

How they hurt: My experiences show that unions introduce inefficiencies into work flow (relative to non-union shops) by job protection, seniority rules, avoidance of cross-training, etc. We see that the negotiating power of unions such as the UAW creates a cost disadvantages relative to non-union shops. As a result, the company may be hampered by it's union and be less competitive. While jobs are protected, the company may not succeed as much as it could (creating new jobs) or may ultimately lose market position.

How they help: Representation and a check to abusive management. Clearly these are important functions. To me the question is are there better (or at least as effective) means to provide these functions. Regulations such as OSHA and EEOC have taken on a large part of what unions were needed for in the past.

Bottomline, I don't have a problem with workers organizing but I think sometimes that organization actually works against the members best interests.[/QUOTE]

+1, they also forget that they have no "right" to that job
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#45
#45
T-TownVol said:
volinbham said:
It's an interesting question - do unions help or hurt workers. Clearly they are meant to help. I have limited experiences as a union member (less than a year) and non-union member in a job with multiple unions (2 years).

How they hurt: My experiences show that unions introduce inefficiencies into work flow (relative to non-union shops) by job protection, seniority rules, avoidance of cross-training, etc. We see that the negotiating power of unions such as the UAW creates a cost disadvantages relative to non-union shops. As a result, the company may be hampered by it's union and be less competitive. While jobs are protected, the company may not succeed as much as it could (creating new jobs) or may ultimately lose market position.

How they help: Representation and a check to abusive management. Clearly these are important functions. To me the question is are there better (or at least as effective) means to provide these functions. Regulations such as OSHA and EEOC have taken on a large part of what unions were needed for in the past.

Bottomline, I don't have a problem with workers organizing but I think sometimes that organization actually works against the members best interests.[/QUOTE]

+1, they also forget that they have no "right" to that job
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True statement.
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#46
#46
ptclaus98 said:
By making a better product, then refining it through R&D, thus making a great, reliable, barebones product for the masses, selling it at a low price, raking in the money, and using it to make their product even better, instead of using it to deepen some guy's wallet, and then taking in American subsidies to give Americans jobs.



It's their job to make great cars. Not to convince us that their cars are better than the competition when they aren't. GM did that for years upon years, and it's bit them so hard that when they actually put out a better product than the competition, their pleas fall on deaf ears. The unions are only a minor part of this.
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The Japanese bosses aren't making the same coin as American CEO's?

Name one American car that is better than their Japanese counterpart and I will gladly kiss your ass. And with all the innovation and top notch R&D going on at GM, why can't we compete? Tell me why my 1999 Toyota 4Runner has 200,000 miles on it and it runs like a top, and my Mom's 2005 Chrysler is a disaster.

They say you don't want to buy an American car built on a Monday or Friday. Wonder why that is....
 
#47
#47
beergood said:
The Japanese bosses aren't making the same coin as American CEO's?

Name one American car that is better than their Japanese counterpart and I will gladly kiss your ass. And with all the innovation and top notch R&D going on at GM, why can't we compete? Tell me why my 1999 Toyota 4Runner has 200,000 miles on it and it runs like a top, and my Mom's 2005 Chrysler is a disaster.

They say you don't want to buy an American car built on a Monday or Friday. Wonder why that is....
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That's the point. GM and Ford sold better products overseas for years. They saved their worst for us because they could use nationalism to sell their product, and if that failed they could sell a billion trucks and SUVs. When that failed, they still didn't budge. It took the threat of bankruptcy for them to bring over their best designs and platforms. There's not a whole ton of innovation that went on at GM from the mid 90's till now. They did a great job of refining their engines, but everything else around it fell apart within 5 years. VW with their TDI and DSG tranny, Honda and Toyota with VVT and and Hybrid tech. These three took tech that was a joke 20 years ago, and refined it, and perfected it, all while refining the product around it at the same time. How? By going racing with cars close to their roadgoing counterparts.
 
#48
#48
American automakers' dominance rested with their pickups and SUV's. Once the Japanese mastered the art of the pickup and SUV, all the Big 3 could do was rebadge European and Korean cars as their own and hope the consumer didn't peel back the label.
 
#49
#49
T-TownVol said:
I was in low level management at a manufacturing facility that employed 550 union workers. The plant was shut down because of the union boss, and his advise to the union, to reject a contract offer. I grew up with those people and tried to get through to them that the ownership was serious about shutting down. Most of those peolple now work jobs for half of what they were offered. They were "served" poorly by the people they elected to look out for their best interest.
Click to expand...

The bosses have the sheep convinced that fighting over principle is more important than fighting for their jobs...
 
#50
#50
Rasputin_Vol said:
The bosses have the sheep convinced that fighting over principle is more important than fighting for their jobs...
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Isn't that what a union is all about......"you are not capable of making your own decisions, WE will make them for you"....sound familiar?
 
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