GOP breaking ranks ....

[volinbham]

As is, the Democrats are rightfully warning seniors and seniors-to-be (its not a "scare tactic" if its true) that there will be sharp cuts in health care for them in their retirement years (not gradual and incremental, but sharp). They can also point out, correctly, that it would be done at the same time that the Republicans cut the tax burden on the wealthiest.

that's our LG

 

[BeecherVol]

How to reform Medicare? There is a reason why its going the wrong direction now, its not hard to figure why one aspect of it needs to be changed.

How to reform Social Security? Phase it out and allow the citizens to be responsible with their retirement money in the future. Its theirs to stock pile or blow. You deal with the repercussions whatever they maybe.

Better.

Both issues have the same common problem.

 

[YorkVol]

I'm for deep, deep cuts in every program, across the whole of government from local to federal.
















Except any program that directly affects my life, so no cuts to education, infrastructure, defense, building code enforcement and emergency response, oh, and please hold onto my social security until I get there. Thanks!

 

[VolDad]

Breaking news that at least 3 GOP senators will vote against the Ryan plan.

This Medicare thing is absolutely going to be hung around the neck of the GOP in the House in next elections.

They are breaking ranks, there is a generational GAP, etc… Dam they might as well fold up tent and go home. It must have really sucked for them in the last major election.

Oh wait…

 

[VolDad]

.. This Medicare thing is absolutely going to be hung around the neck of the GOP in the House in next elections.

You mean like the Economy for the Dems?!?

 

[lawgator1]

You mean like the Economy for the Dems?!?

Economy is a problem for Obama. Unemployment worries, gas prices, inflation, all of those are going to present difficulty for Obama next year.

And, the GOP managed to tag the House interim election candidates with the health care reform bill and to portray that as unjustified government encroachment into private sector. This was used to reinforce GOP warnings that Obama was radical.

But since then, the numbers in support of Obama health care plan stedily improving as people realize how it actually works. And, the big problem for the GOP is that the Ryan plan has upstaged the Obama plan in terms of health care because it dramatically changes Medicare in a way that the public is 4-1 against.

As I say, Medicare and SS have to be reformed. The mistake the GOP has made is that they have offered much deeper cuts than the Dems and that married to those are these tax cuts for the wealthy.

You simply cannot tell the vast majority of Americans who will count on Medicare and SS to survive that they have to tighten their belts to balance the budget while you are giving huge tax breaks to the already-wealthy.

It just isn't going to fly.

 

[volinbham]

And, the GOP managed to tag the House interim election candidates with the health care reform bill and to portray that as unjustified government encroachment into private sector. This was used to reinforce GOP warnings that Obama was radical.

I ain't scare tactics if it's true. ammirite?

 

[GAVol]

You simply cannot tell the vast majority of Americans who will count on Medicare and SS to survive that they have to tighten their belts to balance the budget while you are giving huge tax breaks to the already-wealthy.

It just isn't going to fly.

Has there ever been an entitlement that the left didn't defend in exactly this manner?

 

[droski]

just wait till the stimulus job money runs out. then it will be "we need another $500 mil because all those poor americans will lose their jobs" argument.

 

[BeecherVol]

Economy is a problem for Obama. Unemployment worries, gas prices, inflation, all of those are going to present difficulty for Obama next year.

And, the GOP managed to tag the House interim election candidates with the health care reform bill and to portray that as unjustified government encroachment into private sector. This was used to reinforce GOP warnings that Obama was radical.

But since then, the numbers in support of Obama health care plan stedily improving as people realize how it actually works. And, the big problem for the GOP is that the Ryan plan has upstaged the Obama plan in terms of health care because it dramatically changes Medicare in a way that the public is 4-1 against.

As I say, Medicare and SS have to be reformed. The mistake the GOP has made is that they have offered much deeper cuts than the Dems and that married to those are these tax cuts for the wealthy.

You simply cannot tell the vast majority of Americans who will count on Medicare and SS to survive that they have to tighten their belts to balance the budget while you are giving huge tax breaks to the already-wealthy.

It just isn't going to fly.

What do you tell them when its gone/completely out of money. "Them" may be my generation.

Concessions (on SS specifically) will have to be made. Given the current conditions the future SS wave (which would include me) better make other arrangements. Its basically a tax and not savings account to draw off of later. My beef is not with those on SS. Both my grandmothers are. Mine is that my SS dollars are paying their way right now because the idea of giving your future retirement to the govmn't is a bad idea to begin with. The current conditions echo that. I would gladly pay into SS for 10 more years and never draw a dime, if at that point I could take what I would put in and invest it on my own.

As you put it. "It just isn't going to fly."

 

[milohimself]

Has there ever been an entitlement that the left didn't defend in exactly this manner?

He's right. You can't ask a large group of people to take cuts in social programs while giving perceived tax breaks to wealthy people. It loses elections.

But so does telling people they need more tax revenue, hence the mess we're in.

 

[GAVol]

He's right. You can't ask a large group of people to take cuts in social programs while giving perceived tax breaks to wealthy people. It loses electionsn.

I've seen this act a million times.

 

[sjt18]

LG, simple cost/benefit comparison.

Healthcare. Which provides the most value for the cost... medicaid or private insurance?

Retirement. Which provides the most retirement $ for the amount deposited? I'll give you a hint... I and my employers have contributed somewhere in the neighborhood of $225,000 into SSI. (I am not very close to retirement). By the time I retire I will have contributed more than twice that much. IF I draw the max... I will have to live to be older than 80 before I even get my "principle" back without adjusting for inflation. My 401k in spite of the rocky stock markets at various times and the Obama extension of the recession is worth more than 300% of what I've contributed.

The gov't does "general welfare" things like roads, fire protection, et al decently well. It does benefits and the like VERY, VERY poorly.

 

[sjt18]

He's right. You can't ask a large group of people to take cuts in social programs while giving perceived tax breaks to wealthy people. It loses elections.

But so does telling people they need more tax revenue, hence the mess we're in.

You may not be able to tell people the truth... that does not prevent it from being true. We are in the mess we are in NOT because taxes aren't high enough but because gov't spends WAY too much. We simultaneously need more business activity and wealth creation AND budget control. While it is certainly easy for the left to lie about and demagogue, his program is correct in both approaches.

 

[sjt18]

As it should be, but the Democrats are not blameless on the health care issue by a long margin.

How to reform Medicare? Medicare for All in a single payer system.

No matter how many times you say it... you are still wrong unless that "single payer system" is one that issues vouchers to everyone.

How to reform Social Security? Stop stealing from the kitty to pay for the wars.

And other social programs and disability for people able to work and "good gov't" projects and failed stimulus packages and bail outs that include payola to unions and overpriced gov't union labor and education that does not include real choice for parents...

Actually the best way to "fix" SSI is to partially or fully privatize it... but again, "progressives" will not lose control of people on such a massive scale without a fight.

How to balance the books? Progressive taxation with heavy cuts on defense, war, and police spending. Time to roll back the mess Reagan put us in.

You could not conceivably be more wrong if you were trying (and I still suspect you might be). Entitlement spending dwarfs all of those things and you full well know it. Under liberal plans, it will continue to grow and consume more of the nation's wealth and production. Defense and police are necessary. They DO have a payback in that they secure the environment for wealth creation.

We already have progressive taxation. Of course you seem perfectly willing to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Your ideal does two things that KILL an economy. It subsidizes sloth and underproduction and punishes wealth creation and production.

 

[lawgator1]

Has there ever been an entitlement that the left didn't defend in exactly this manner?

As mentioned earlier, Obama's budget would cut back on the growth of Medicare. Everyone agrees that the programs cannot grow as projected.

The question is how far do you scale them back at the same time you cut the tax bills of the wealthiest in half.

Its not the Democrats' fault that the Republican strategists on this issue have turned out to be politically retarded.

 

[sjt18]

As mentioned earlier, Obama's budget would cut back on the growth of Medicare. Everyone agrees that the programs cannot grow as projected.

It will NEVER happen and Obama full well knows it. To cut back on growth without serious reforms means a cut in benefits... but that will be someone else's problem because all of "his" cuts are future.

The responsible thing to do is what Ryan has attempted. Reform the program and enable people to make decisions that push waste out and build value in. Ryan's voucher idea is EXACTLY what needs to be done to ALL gov't provided healthcare. Let those consumers take those $$$ into the market and get the best deal they can with them. That's how you get the best value out of the money spent.

The question is how far do you scale them back at the same time you cut the tax bills of the wealthiest in half.

You start with dispensing with the idea that lower rates mean lower revenues. You collect more taxes at a lower rate for the EXACT same reason you can make more profit at a lower mark up. You get more activity.

Its not the Democrats' fault that the Republican strategists on this issue have turned out to be politically retarded.

Yes it is. They don't oppose it because it won't work. They oppose it because it WILL work and WILL NOT result in them gaining power again. They know they're lying... and YES, that is THEIR fault.

 

[BigPapaVol]

He's right. You can't ask a large group of people to take cuts in social programs while giving perceived tax breaks to wealthy people. It loses elections.

But so does telling people they need more tax revenue, hence the mess we're in.

The fact that this can be an argument is the reason we've spawned clowns like Gibbs.
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[VOLFAN_MTSUALUM]

LG, simple cost/benefit comparison.

Healthcare. Which provides the most value for the cost... medicaid or private insurance?

Retirement. Which provides the most retirement $ for the amount deposited? I'll give you a hint... I and my employers have contributed somewhere in the neighborhood of $225,000 into SSI. (I am not very close to retirement). By the time I retire I will have contributed more than twice that much. IF I draw the max... I will have to live to be older than 80 before I even get my "principle" back without adjusting for inflation. My 401k in spite of the rocky stock markets at various times and the Obama extension of the recession is worth more than 300% of what I've contributed.

The gov't does "general welfare" things like roads, fire protection, et al decently well. It does benefits and the like VERY, VERY poorly.

Don't cloud this argument with sensible, clear thinking. It really screws up LG's logic that he regurgitates from MSNBC.
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[gsvol]

The republican party is infiltrated with rinos, this is nothing new at all.

Recenty five rinos voted with fifty two dhimmicraps to defeat a bill to order Barack Hussein Obama and his band of enviroradicals to expedite domestic oil drilling, not that domestic oil drilling wouldn't be more a part of the solution than part of the problem.

If there be any albatross to be hung around anyone's neck it would be Obamacair.

 

[milohimself]

You may not be able to tell people the truth... that does not prevent it from being true. We are in the mess we are in NOT because taxes aren't high enough but because gov't spends WAY too much. We simultaneously need more business activity and wealth creation AND budget control. While it is certainly easy for the left to lie about and demagogue, his program is correct in both approaches.

Not really. The Ryan plan doesn't have the approach to curtail the costs of anything; it merely shifts them. Go read the thread I had on the cost of health care expenditures, then realize that the Ryan plan has absolutely nothing in it to curtail those costs and they will continue to rise meteorically. Neither the tax payers nor private citizens or companies can bare the brunt of those costs. Ryan saw the boulder coming down the hill and decided to jump out of the way.

The ACA, for all its flaws, is actually built on the premise of reducing the cost of medical care itself. I don't think the government should be a player as a firm or single payer in any of it, but the fact is that the medical model we are using now demands fundamental changes or it will collapse. The mandate is the keypoint of this change.

Again, considering public health spending constitutes the biggest portion of the pie, this isn't just a government spending issue, and it's completely near-sighted to believe that it is; it's a cost issue in total.

In addition to that, Obama and Ryan both have proposed nothing regarding DoD spending. Wondering how military expenditures that are generally unpopular are some sort of sacred cow.

In general, I agree that the government as an insurer needs to be done away with, Medicare and Medicaid in general and replace it with individual subsidies for the poor and the elderly.

One key problem with the Ryan plan is that the Medicare voucher amount changes with the CPI plus one (IIRC) which is a pipe dream. If instituted now, that voucher would buy seniors approximately jackshat in about ten years.

Ryan's problem, however, was that he couldn't come up with a voucher system that would actually have any staying power with the actual cost of medical care; that is, if the vouchers he proposed were to carry the same purchasing power in the medical market years down the road that they do today, we will wind up right back where we are.

And that is why this problem needs some upstream thinking; again, the ACA at least makes an attempt to curtail the actual cost of medical care whereas the Ryan plan is a temporary stopgap that will either put us right back into the same jam we're in now, or reduce the purchasing power of Medicare to nothing.

The fact that this can be an argument is the reason we've spawned clowns like Gibbs.
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Just pointing out the absurdity of it. Getting the majority of the American public to vote towards financially solvent legislation is tough.

 

[droski]

As mentioned earlier, Obama's budget would cut back on the growth of Medicare. .

sigh. you really believe this? you do realize that's because his NEW healthcare program covers some of this? that's savings? nothing is being cut.

 

[lawgator1]

sigh. you really believe this? you do realize that's because his NEW healthcare program covers some of this? that's savings? nothing is being cut.

Ryan was on tv this morning, the Morningjoe show, and specifically said Obama was going to cut $500 billion from Medicare.

Are you saying Paul Ryan is a liar?

 

[droski]

he's pulling an obama. stretch the truth for political benefit.

 

[lawgator1]

he's pulling an obama. stretch the truth for political benefit.

"Stretching the truth"?

You are saying I am categorically wrong for saying Obama cuts Medicare. When Ryan says the same thing, he's just "stretching the truth."

Double standard, imo.