Great Heisman Injustice?

#52
#52
I am so glad that Peyton didn't win the Heisman Trophy. The majority of players that win The Heisman are usually pan out as a "big bust" in The NFL. I am waiting to see if Reggie Bush follow the trend.
 
#53
#53
(Mr. Rockytop @ Jul 8 said:
I am so glad that Peyton didn't win the Heisman Trophy. The majority of player that win The Heisman are usually pan out as a "big bust" in The NFL. I am waiting to see if Reggie Bush follow the trend.
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This is like believing one person is unluckier than another. The Heisman is not bad luck.
 
#54
#54
Yeah, I think the fact that some Heisman winners flame out in the NFL is a lot more of a comment on how difficult the NFL is vs. some sort of Heisman curse. College and Pro football are just two different games.
 
#55
#55
(GAVol @ Jul 8 said:
Yeah, I think the fact that some Heisman winners flame out in the NFL is a lot more of a comment on how difficult the NFL is vs. some sort of Heisman curse. College and Pro football are just two different games.
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Since Barry Sanders won in '88, there's a good arguement that only two Heisman winners have had any real professional success, Eddie George and Charles Woodson. Carson Palmer appears to be on his way and Ricky Williams did lead the league in rushing one year, but George and Woodson are the only guys who have been consistent, top line players.
 
#56
#56
(hatvol96 @ Jul 8 said:
Since Barry Sanders won in '88, there's a good arguement that only two Heisman winners have had any real professional success, Eddie George and Charles Woodson. Carson Palmer appears to be on his way and Ricky Williams did lead the league in rushing one year, but George and Woodson are the only guys who have been consistent, top line players.
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Heisman tropy doesn't carry the weight it once did. Now it goes to the ncaa player on the best team with the best stats, not the best player.
 
#57
#57
(hatvol96 @ Jul 8 said:
Since Barry Sanders won in '88, there's a good arguement that only two Heisman winners have had any real professional success, Eddie George and Charles Woodson. Carson Palmer appears to be on his way and Ricky Williams did lead the league in rushing one year, but George and Woodson are the only guys who have been consistent, top line players.
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Yeah, Carson is getting to that level. I think he would have taken his team very far into the playoffs if not for that cheap shot he took. That hit was so late I thought I was watching my friends play NFL Blitz for a second. And yeah, I have no doubt Ricky Williams would have continued to be a huge NFL success if not for his own personality conflicts with the world of professional sports. So, You can't really say the Heisman is an all-around bad omen for NFL careers. It's just been more shoddy over the last 18-ish years.
 
#58
#58
Has anybody addressed the issue concerning UT historically frontloading their schedule with tough opponents. Down the stretch of a Heisman run, UT players are on Jefferson Pilot playing against Vandy and UK...
 
#59
#59
(milohimself @ Jul 8 said:
Yeah, Carson is getting to that level. I think he would have taken his team very far into the playoffs if not for that cheap shot he took. That hit was so late I thought I was watching my friends play NFL Blitz for a second. And yeah, I have no doubt Ricky Williams would have continued to be a huge NFL success if not for his own personality conflicts with the world of professional sports. So, You can't really say the Heisman is an all-around bad omen for NFL careers. It's just been more shoddy over the last 18-ish years.
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DAMN 18 YEARS IS THAT ALL? AND WE DON'T CONSIDER THE PROBABILITY OF A HEISMAN JINX ?
 
#60
#60
(Mr. Rockytop @ Jul 8 said:
DAMN 18 YEARS IS THAT ALL? AND WE DON'T CONSIDER THE PROBABILITY OF A HEISMAN JINX ?
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How is it a jinx? Did anyone really think, for examples, Ty Detmer or Gino Toretta would become Pro Bowlers? Is any sane person surprised that Scott Frost didn't go on to NFL stardom? The Heisman Trophy isn't for the best NFL prospect, it's a collegiate award.
 
#61
#61
(Mr. Rockytop @ Jul 8 said:
DAMN 18 YEARS IS THAT ALL? AND WE DON'T CONSIDER THE PROBABILITY OF A HEISMAN JINX ?
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When the amount of "Heisman busts" is pretty parallel to other draftees busting, there is no jinx.
 
#63
#63
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
Has anybody addressed the issue concerning UT historically frontloading their schedule with tough opponents. Down the stretch of a Heisman run, UT players are on Jefferson Pilot playing against Vandy and UK...
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It would have been interesting if Peyton had been around in 2001 when the Vols defeated the Gators in the pushed back Florida game because of September 11. I know there was a championship game after that, but still, the momentum of that victory and a good playing in the championship game would probably have been enough to win it.
 
#64
#64
(Mr. Rockytop @ Jul 8 said:
DAMN 18 YEARS IS THAT ALL? AND WE DON'T CONSIDER THE PROBABILITY OF A HEISMAN JINX ?
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They could all be busts for the next 50 years and there still would be no such thing as a jinx.
 
#65
#65
(Mr. Rockytop @ Jul 8 said:
DAMN 18 YEARS IS THAT ALL? AND WE DON'T CONSIDER THE PROBABILITY OF A HEISMAN JINX ?
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did that happen?
 
#66
#66
(hatvol96 @ Jul 7 said:
No, I wouldn't. When healthy, Woodson is a vastly superior player. Law puts up big interception numbers for the same reason outfielders with weak arms often lead their leagues in assists. Teams throw at him a great deal because they think their receivers can beat him. Woodson doesn't get many interceptions because people don't throw at him.
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You make a valid point but I have to go with the guy who follows Michigan, a true blue fan for life with his Law comment that was made with no bias.
 
#67
#67
(utfantilidie @ Jul 8 said:
You make a valid point but I have to go with the guy who follows Michigan, a true blue fan for life with his Law comment that was made with no bias.
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I have nothing against your friend. He's simply wrong.
 
#68
#68
(utfantilidie @ Jul 8 said:
You make a valid point but I have to go with the guy who follows Michigan, a true blue fan for life with his Law comment that was made with no bias.
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If he didn't know Law was already in the NFL in '97, how big a Michigan fan can he really be?
 
#70
#70
(Bobby Dodd @ Jul 8 said:
It would have been interesting if Peyton had been around in 2001 when the Vols defeated the Gators in the pushed back Florida game because of September 11. I know there was a championship game after that, but still, the momentum of that victory and a good playing in the championship game would probably have been enough to win it.
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I think Travis Stephens was a sorta borderline Heisman candidate. I think he was one of the top rushers that year, along with DeShaun Foster -maybe? He had to have gotten a little Heisman attention, since he was an All-American. Anyway, he ran for like 200 yards in that game and it didn't even make him a finalist. I guess he may have seemed a little more human against LSU in the SECCG.
 
#71
#71
(kptvol @ Jul 9 said:
I think Travis Stephens was a sorta borderline Heisman candidate. I think he was one of the top rushers that year, along with DeShaun Foster -maybe? He had to have gotten a little Heisman attention, since he was an All-American. Anyway, he ran for like 200 yards in that game and it didn't even make him a finalist. I guess he may have seemed a little more human against LSU in the SECCG.
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Yeah, unfortunately, he seemed very human in that game.
 
#72
#72
But, if memory serves me right, the Heisman was awarded the same day as the conference championships in 2001. This would remove Stephens' showing against LSU from the equation entirely.
 
#73
#73
(Ohio Vol @ Jul 10 said:
But, if memory serves me right, the Heisman was awarded the same day as the conference championships in 2001. This would remove Stephens' showing against LSU from the equation entirely.
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on a side note, whats your opinion of UT going to the spread offense that Cutcliffe has been talking about, instead of the offset I, 3 wr set.

apparently the coaching staff believes they dont have enough of a passing threat to keep the safeties from playing the run, so they want to spread the field more to open things up.
 
#74
#74
Oklavol,

The spread offense can succeed, with various caveats.

1) Wide receivers cannot get lazy with their blocking. A lot of running from the spread seems to end up further outside than it was designed to, and the wide receivers need to block every play

2) If there is a strong passing attack, defenses have a tendency to overcommit one way or another...usually (if they're in a 4-3-4 personnel set) they'll run an outside linebacker out to cover a receiver, which creates mismatches if the passing is strong. If that comes to pass, a lot of DCs will want to walk a safety over the top of the OLB and CB (creating a triangle on the defense over twin receivers). This leaves the middle of the field shorthanded for either passing or running.

3) If the running is strong, the safeties will usually adjust by coming up to aid in run support. This prevents them from being able to play deep zones and leaves them vulnerable to a play action that attacks the empty zones where a cover 2 or Tampa 2 would normally be set up.

4) If the offense is balanced, the defense plays back on their heels and need to gamble in order to make up for the disadvantage that being tenuous is. The beauty of a gambling defense (i.e. Ole Miss during their 10-win 2003 season) is that if they guess right there's no one who can score on them. If they guess wrong, it's a quick 7 points. That leads to...

5) Offensive discipline. It seems like small things, but my opinion is that a defense should never be able to line up and have any clue what kind of play the offense will run. I've had good success at the high school level by looking closely to see what certain players do on certain plays, and it only takes one guy getting undisciplined to blow up a play. A spread offense from the shotgun is vulnerable to the halfback tipping plays (this happens a LOT more than anyone would ever let on). But we once had a field day against a very highly-regarded offense because I picked up on something that the left guard was doing on certain plays in his stance....a very, VERY minor thing to spot, but we shut out a nationally-ranked offense.

6) Chemistry. Every coach and player wants to talk about chemistry, but a spread can run into trouble if guys get into a freewheeling mode. For the double option that Texas ran to death last year, it required very strict discipline on the part of the offensive line to not only drive their men one way, but then to completely shift directions when the defense keyed (since they can see what the OL can't) Vince Young whenever he'd pull the ball. Quickly changing on the fly like that is not an easy task, and the OL is the unit that needs to become the most cohesive.

The beauty of the spread is that what can be run from it is limitless. The downside is that it's an inherently tricky setup to master, and against an offense that audibles a lot, the defense can play the same game by rotating, shifting, or stemming. Of course, that can all be disrupted by the offense going on a quick count, but being in the shotgun negates that advantage as well.
 
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