Hardnosed political discussion . . .

[GAVol]

Also, I think allowing the governement to take over US healthcare is a great way to ensure that a lot of smart people DON'T go into medicine.

 

[smokedog#3]

i'm sure they tax them everybody does. my statement that i would like to make is yes they do have higher taxes, but not as bad as everybody thinks. i worked for a canadian company and i stated with a friend that canada i had heard taxes the hell out of their citizens. he just laughed at me. he had lived in perrysburg ohio for 2 years and told me the taxes he was paying there were almost the exact same as he was paying in toronto. i've stated before ohio is a terrible tax state 3rd worst in the usa. i've also worked in canada and i can tell you from experience things are cheaper there, food, clothing, hotels, etc. sure i got alittle ahead of myself when i said there healthcare was free. they tax them for it, but from what i've read it is still tons cheaper than ours.

 

[GAVol]

Regardless what the cost is . . . I'm fundamentally opposed to any nationalization of healthcare.

 

[OWB]

Healthcare? We don't need no stinkin' healthcare.

 

[smokedog#3]

there are pros and cons to it. it is cheaper and everybody not just the rich can get treated. they can't overcharge the way they do in the usa. if you need a complicated surgery or something you may wait for awhile, doctors get paid less, less experienced doctors. i like it better than what we have though. if the whole world would join this concept it would be a good thing, but it will never happen.

 

[jdsa]

There is what amounts to a 7% sales tax (they call it a GST) on most goods and services in Canada.

I'm not really arguing Canadian tax policy other than to say that they tax the daylights out of their citizens in return for free healthcare.

We tax the daylight out of our citizens to maintain a disproportionately large military.

 

[GAVol]

We tax the daylight out of our citizens to maintain a disproportionately large military.

I'll take my chances on there being too many soldiers. Besides, have you comparison shopped for a private army lately? They're just outrageous I tell ya.

 

[jdsa]

That is something that always drives me crazy when trying to discuss healthcare.

Why doesn't the government provide healthcare for any one.

Then as soon as you respond that taxpayers pay for the healthcare they just look at you like you are stupid.

Yeah, its not free....and besides you want to depend on government?

The scariest thing in life, to me, is that people depend on their government for their every day needs and well being. Scary!

There's a class of people that simply won't have health care if no one provides it for them, so they turn to the government if only because there's no else to do it.

I think this goes to the issue of whether you see health care as a right or a privilege. I don't know whether I would say we need gov't owned healthcare system, but to me, at least, no one deserves to die because they couldn't afford the treatment. Unfortunately the price of that kind of morality is higher taxes or ins. premiums, I know there's no way around it, but to me, at least, paying more in this case seems like the right thing to do.

 

[jdsa]

I'll take my chances on there being too many soldiers. Besides, have you comparison shopped for a private army lately? They're just outrageous I tell ya.

I think they've got some reliability issues to.

 

[GAVol]

I would agree with that. I don't think healthcare is a right, but at the same time morality forces us to subsidize indigent care to some degree.

 

[volinbham]

More on Canadian taxes - guess what; they pay more!

tax burden

 

[USMCvol]

There's a class of people that simply won't have health care if no one provides it for them, so they turn to the government if only because there's no else to do it.

I think this goes to the issue of whether you see health care as a right or a privilege. I don't know whether I would say we need gov't owned healthcare system, but to me, at least, no one deserves to die because they couldn't afford the treatment. Unfortunately the price of that kind of morality is higher taxes or ins. premiums, I know there's no way around it, but to me, at least, paying more in this case seems like the right thing to do.

You question whether health care is a right or privilege. Rights are things that cannot be provided by men. For example the right to bear arms. Health Care is a choice, most people who cannot afford insurance CAN afford things like cable tv or cell phones. It should be a matter of priorities.

 

[smokedog#3]

i need more bham, i've seen other articles that say the exact opposite. i also know people that lived in ohio and then in toronto and they have said they are pretty close. i'm not sure, but there are alot of conflicting stories here. i think it is a conspiracy. :biggrin2:

 

[GAVol]

Seems pretty consistent with everything else I've read:

In total, the average Canadian family faced a tax bill of $36,782 in 2004 representing 48.8% of income or nearly half of total family income.

 

[volinbham]

More tax data as requested by Smoke:

%GDP

Note that the claim in Wikipedia that the US tax relative to GDP as being in the mid-30's is consistently stated in other sources as mid 20's (as is noted here).

 

[OrangeEmpire]

I agree no one should die because they can't afford medical care, but that is not the job of the government.

In my opinion, that is the failure of the churches in America. The Church should take care of the poor and sick and that is something they fail greatly at. Again that is only my opinion.

 

[jdsa]

You question whether health care is a right or privilege. Rights are things that cannot be provided by men. For example the right to bear arms. Health Care is a choice, most people who cannot afford insurance CAN afford things like cable tv or cell phones. It should be a matter of priorities.

You don't think people have a right to live? (Not to make this more emotionally charged than it needs to be).

Also, I don't see how anyone can see heathcare being just a matter of priorities. No sane person is going to choose getting another big mac over getting the appropriate medical treatment for what ails them.

Unlike when the country was founded, healthcare is an essential crutch to everyone's existence at this point. Just look at the diseases ravaging the third world that could be cured with simple vaccinations if you need proof.

 

[hatvol96]

You don't think people have a right to live? (Not to make this more emotionally charged than it needs to be).

Also, I don't see how anyone can see heathcare being just a matter of priorities. No sane person is going to choose getting another big mac over getting the appropriate medical treatment for what ails them.

Unlike when the country was founded, healthcare is an essential crutch to everyone's existence at this point. Just look at the diseases ravaging the third world that could be cured with simple vaccinations if you need proof.

Then, by your standard, a huge portion of the US population is insane.

 

[smokedog#3]

so which one am i suppose to believe bham. my friend says they are not much different from ohio's taxes. what stories you have shown say they are. like i said it is a conspiracy. if you look hard enough you can find a way to dispute anything.

 

[USMCvol]

You don't think people have a right to live? (Not to make this more emotionally charged than it needs to be).

Also, I don't see how anyone can see heathcare being just a matter of priorities. No sane person is going to choose getting another big mac over getting the appropriate medical treatment for what ails them.

Unlike when the country was founded, healthcare is an essential crutch to everyone's existence at this point. Just look at the diseases ravaging the third world that could be cured with simple vaccinations if you need proof.

Healthcare is important, not as important as food. Your logic has won me over I call for goverment funding of this necessity. All necessities: fuel, housing, clothing we shall all be cared for by the government.

 

[milohimself]

The system of legislation needs cleaned up though. State funding gets stripped to nothing by the time it hits ground level. At least this is my experience with school funding.

 

[jdsa]

Healthcare is important, not as important as food. Your logic has won me over I call for goverment funding of this necessity. All necessities: fuel, housing, clothing we shall all be cared for by the government.

I'm not sure I've ever won anyone over before, so, gee, thanks. (If only I believed you. . .)

I wouldn't I would want the government to resolve all of life's iniquities, even if it could. On the other hand, I do think there are some circumstances when government has to get involved in providing each of those basic items you mention.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Just a few thoughts....

Most of these 'illegals' are migrant workers who come here for a period of months, make their money, and return to their home countries. Many of these could care less about citizenship. They're here because of a need in low-wage labor.

These people do pay taxes. They do not pay income taxes that go to roads, defense, etc. But they do pay sales tax on goods purchased. Medicaid and education which is funded by local sales taxes is used by these groups. So the notion these are a bunch of leaches draining the system is not exactly true.

Most of the calls for action on illegal immigration have yet to address the core issue on the economics side. Very few people are calling for action against the AMERICANS who are hiring these illegals. Here you have flag-waving Americans blatantly violating US laws by employing these people. I guarantee you if you made hiring these people a felony and started revoking some business and drivers licenses and revoking the right to vote for these people adding a stiff fine, things would change. Everyone is calling for rule of law but no one wants to punish the Americans who are promoting this problem, exploiting workers for lower wages, and adding to my tax burden by stiffing the tax system money from labor. Perhaps the IRS needs to have increased numbers of agents to track these lawbreakers down.

There is obviously a need for lower-skilled labor in this country. The issue shows that there needs to be a move to allow more workers in here. Moves to say those who are not law breaking or who have been here 5 or more years are bogus. How do we know who these people are? They have no documentation. We have no clue how long they've been here. If I had a criminal record or I wanted the 5+ year exemption I'd lie through my teeth if I wanted to stay here.

Any move to round up illegals and dump them at the border would severely cripple this country. People do not realize it but after so many years of letting this problem go, our economy has become dependent on these people. Construction would drop, farming would drop, meat processing would drop, etc. Anything that is done will have to be taken slow and smartly.

 

[smokedog#3]

i agree to a point dizzy. the people hiring illegals should be thrown in jail and fined up the rear end. our government has no intention of doing this. along the other line, you can't give 12 million illegals amnesty that isn't right. some should be allowed to stay, but some have to go back. there are mexicans waiting to get into the US the right way and they deserve first go around. none of this really matters because our govenment will find away to screw this up. anymore i think that is what they are paid for to screw things up. i really don't think they have any intentions of fixing this, they are just trying to look good.

 

[volinbham]

so which one am i suppose to believe bham. my friend says they are not much different from ohio's taxes. what stories you have shown say they are. like i said it is a conspiracy. if you look hard enough you can find a way to dispute anything.

Obviously you have to decide. My thoughts would be that your friend represents a single case and his/her perception of his/her total tax burden. Alternatively, large studies describe the aggregate picture.

Just as in our discussion of the economy - by virtually every economic indicator, the economy is very good and very strong. However, you mentioned several people you know that are struggling or don't see it.

Virtually all the stats I've seen say that overall, the Canadian tax burden is higher than the US tax burden just as virtually every reports says the overall economy is strong. However, I could find individual people that would say their experience doesn't match those facts.