Harper vs. Lawson

#76
#76
madtownvol said:
Getting fired (or a contract extension) is the only accountability facing coaches. Whether or not fans makes "excuses" does not have diddly squat impact on a coach's accountability.
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This. Fans can bluster and post til the cows come home and it means nothing in the real world. So many seem to believe just venting their outrage is "helping" by "not accepting". If you're determined to hold a program or coach "accountable" you have two options. If you're in the small percentage of fans who donate, you can stop. If you go to games, you can stay home. Outside of that, we have zero influence.

I've had this conversation with posters who are genuinely outraged that we are "accepting" a snowflake level of success. If only we'd get as personally offended as they are, the good ole days of Pat would magically restore.

I'm sure you've noticed this board occasionally has an over-inflated opinion of it's own influence. And the ability to personalize and politicize everything.

Gotta disagree on the WNIT. We talked about this when it was a threat after Holly's last season. I say you go, and use it as the equivalent of throwing em out of the locke rroom. Be like, this is what happens to teams who have the kind of season we just had. You woman up, start getting better right now, use the extra practice time. Win the darn thing and at least go out on a semi- high. And no, you apparently are not too good.

It always felt kind of snobby and disrespectful of the teams who do go if you decline on the basis of "we would never stoop so low".
 
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#77
#77
glv98 said:
This. Fans can bluster and post til the cows come home and it means nothing in the real world. So many seem to believe just venting their outrage is "helping" by "not accepting". If you're determined to hold a program or coach "accountable" you have two options. If you're in the small percentage of fans who donate, you can stop. If you go to games, you can stay home. Outside of that, we have zero influence.

I've had this conversation with posters who are genuinely outraged that we are "accepting" a snowflake level of success. If only we'd get as personally offended as they are, the good ole days of Pat would magically restore.

I'm sure you've noticed this board occasionally has an over-inflated opinion of it's own influence. And the ability to personalize and politicize everything.

Gotta disagree on the WNIT. We talked about this when it was a threat after Holly's last season. I say you go, and use it as the equivalent of throwing em out of the locke rroom. Be like, this is what happens to teams who have the kind of season we just had. You woman up, start getting better right now, use the extra practice time. Win the darn thing and at least go out on a semi- high. And no, you apparently are not too good.

It always felt kind of snobby and disrespectful of the teams who do go if you decline on the basis of "we would never stoop so low".
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I forgot about the donors. Withholding donor $ is another source of influence. I suppose season ticket holders, as an aggregate group, have some leverage too.

We know that big donors have a huge influence on whether football coaches get hired or fired. At basketball schools, like Duke and KY, the same principle holds for the men's teams. I really don't know what level of influence donors tend to have in women's basketball.
 
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#78
#78
lvocd said:
Do we know for certain it was Kara's decision? Could Duke have an unspoken rule about it? Could she have left it to the players to decide? I have no idea, just asking because it's possible it wasn't her choice. Could have been. May have been. Just not certain it was.

Also, StorrsCentral, do you think Geno woukd have accepted a WNIT bid if the team hadn't bounced back like they did and had fallen just short of NCAA Tournament expectations this year?
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Good question, I really don't know how to answer that. The LVs have been in every tournament since it started, and back in the beginning the WNIT didn't exist, and since the UConn and Tennessee programs are mainstays in the NCAA I doubt if the question ever came up with both schools. Knowing that, most , if not all of the players would be back eventually, I don't think it ever crossed Genos mind, I know I never thought of it. Most of the players she has now have never been as far as I know, so as I mentioned before it would give them tournament experience. I also believe that the vote they took should have been unanimous, without Karas input. She should have accepted, there are a lot of very good teams in the WNIT tournament. Of course, just my opinion. If I were a player, I would extend my season as long as I could.
 
#79
#79
StorrsCentral said:
I have always thought that Kara would make a great coach, but her decision to not play in the WNIT is a bad one. Its not about her, its about the players. Sure, its not the NCAA tournament, but the freshmen and sophomore have never played in a tournament at all. Its about experience, taking baby steps for her and her players. How many tournament appearances for Kara as a coach, zero is what I can come up with. Vandy was invited and they accepted, cause its all about building a program and giving the players a chance to have a great time and play in the post season for once in their lives. Hopefully both will have more opportunities in the future, but you have to start somewhere. To deny letting the players the chance to go on is very arrogant by the coach. Its about the players, not the head coach.
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WNIT
W e're
N ot
I n the
T ournament
 
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#80
#80
glv98 said:
This. Fans can bluster and post til the cows come home and it means nothing in the real world. So many seem to believe just venting their outrage is "helping" by "not accepting". If you're determined to hold a program or coach "accountable" you have two options. If you're in the small percentage of fans who donate, you can stop. If you go to games, you can stay home. Outside of that, we have zero influence.

I've had this conversation with posters who are genuinely outraged that we are "accepting" a snowflake level of success. If only we'd get as personally offended as they are, the good ole days of Pat would magically restore.

I'm sure you've noticed this board occasionally has an over-inflated opinion of it's own influence. And the ability to personalize and politicize everything.

Gotta disagree on the WNIT. We talked about this when it was a threat after Holly's last season. I say you go, and use it as the equivalent of throwing em out of the locke rroom. Be like, this is what happens to teams who have the kind of season we just had. You woman up, start getting better right now, use the extra practice time. Win the darn thing and at least go out on a semi- high. And no, you apparently are not too good.

It always felt kind of snobby and disrespectful of the teams who do go if you decline on the basis of "we would never stoop so low".
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so you won't accept a snowflake season but you do accept a snowflake tournament
uh,,ok,,
VlMk.gif
 
#81
#81
madtownvol said:
Alright, this comparison is just not reasonable. Kara is a first year coach versus someone who is in her 17th year. When Duke hired Kara, they had to be thinking longer term program building rather than immediate success. Unless Duke completely crashes and burns, Kara probably has a 3-5 year window to prove her merits.
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Duke was actually a dumpster fire when Kara got there. Last year the Covid situation ended the Duke season early.
turbovol said:
What were the problems in the NC State athletic department when Harper was there? She was 23--39 in the ACC when the coach at NC State, which is bad, and her overall record was barely above 500. That will get you sacked, no matter what.
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Kay Yow’s assistant was an emotional fan favorite to take over for Kay as the cancer took her life. Big divide existed and Kellie was in the middle. I’m guessing she could do no right in the eyes of so many.
 
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#82
#82
CoachJumper, I sure hope none of the girls you train ever end up being such total losers that they are forced to play for embarrassingly inferior programs and have to suffer the humiliation of being invited to play in the WNIT. Hopefully you're letting them know NOW, not just on this board but in your sessions, that they really shouldn't even bother to sign with a program that's not a shoo-in to make the NCAA Tournament every year -- unless they want to risk having to been seen playing in that other awful tournament.

:rolleyes:
 
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#83
#83
glv98 said:
It always felt kind of snobby and disrespectful of the teams who do go if you decline on the basis of "we would never stoop so low".
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It's a mixture of pride and shame - pride which leads someone to look down at others around them as inferior, and shame which comes from knowing that they were not worthy of the NCAA tournament. When you read comments from people online who say their teams should decline NIT or WNIT bids, their remarks often come from a place of embarrassment or disappointment. I always think it's funny, reading those remarks. Firstly, because they aren't the team. And secondly, you'd think they should at the very least support the team deciding for itself. But no, it's always "this season sucked, they should just decline the bid." It all comes back to pride.
 
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#84
#84
Coach Jumper said:
so you won't accept a snowflake season but you do accept a snowflake tournament
uh,,ok,,
VlMk.gif
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Not sure what you're referring to as my not "accepting a snowflake season". For the 18th time, random fan "acceptance" of anything LV related means diddly squat. It's a silly notion.

As for the WNIT, IMO its very snowflake to tell a team that finished with a WNIT worthy record that they're too good to participate in the tourney their body of work earned. OK to tell them they "should" be better, and to aim higher. Imperative to tell them the journey to getting better starts now, not next year. Which means jumping on the opportunity for extra practices and extra game experience. Forget ego and shoulda, coulda, woulda and get back to the only chance you have to continue the work. Also, don't insult every other team who goes. But that's just me.
 
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#86
#86
While understanding the disappointment of not making the field, that fact has already been established. What will help avoid a repeat is getting valuable playing experience in live competition, especially in a post-season tournament environment.

Choosing not to play could be perceived as a fear of losing to "lesser" comoetition and an attempt to avoid further embarrassment. Other who choose to play may see their decision as a reward, a path to some redemption, or simply an opportunity to enjoy playing a game they love with teammates they enjoy being around. IMO, beats going home and sulking.
 
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#88
#88
Coach Jumper said:
WNIT is a participation trophy,,,nothing more
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For clarification, I take it that you agree with Duke's decision to not play in the WNIT.
Is that correct ?
What about other teams like Troy, Akron and Columbia, should they also decline the invitation ?
 
#89
#89
volnationnj said:
For clarification, I take it that you agree with Duke's decision to not play in the WNIT.
Is that correct ?
What about other teams like Troy, Akron and Columbia, should they also decline the invitation ?
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other teams like Troy, Akron and Columbia are not P5 BB powers!
My standard is for one team only,,,the Lady Vols
If we EVER accept a WNIT bid, I will wage war against the coach who does this.

I do applaud Kara for not accepting a "participation tournament" and keeping a higher goal in sight.
Is she had accepted the WNIT bid, she would have lost my respect
 
#92
#92
Coach Jumper said:
other teams like Troy, Akron and Columbia are not P5 BB powers!
My standard is for one team only,,,the Lady Vols
If we EVER accept a WNIT bid, I will wage war against the coach who does this.

I do applaud Kara for not accepting a "participation tournament" and keeping a higher goal in sight.
Is she had accepted the WNIT bid, she would have lost my respect
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If the Vols made the NIT I would be upset if they declined. I enjoy watching them play and it can build for the next year. I wouldn’t lose respect for Kara if she accepted a NIT bid but she also doesn’t gain any of my respect by turning it down.
 
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