Heaven or Hell

[OrangeSquare]

The time must be off, because I sure wasn't up at 6:58am.

Gotta fix my clock I guess.

 

[OrangeSquare]

Hmmm, nope, I just posted, and it says 7:08PM, so it must be your all's clocks.

 

[therealUT]

Hmmm, nope, I just posted, and it says 7:08PM, so it must be your all's clocks.

6:58 AM, OWB's timezone.

 

[OWB]

Hmmm, nope, I just posted, and it says 7:08PM, so it must be your all's clocks.

Today, 07:58 AM

Still too early.. and my clocks are fine..
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[OrangeEmpire]

Care to respond to my reply to OrangeEmpire?

Why would I not respond? We are having a friendly conversation are we not? Did I say something that struck a nerve from your previous christian experiences? Am I lumped into your stereotype?

As I have said previously I only have internet access at work, the only reason I am posting right now is that I am at the Library. I will answer your questions tomorrow, if I am permitted? I work 6am to 2pm.

Do you want me to respond from a biblical standpoint or as a human being? :mf_surrender:

Have a good one. :cross:

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Why would I not respond? We are having a friendly conversation are we not? Did I say something that struck a nerve from your previous christian experiences? Am I lumped into your stereotype?

As I have said previously I only have internet access at work, the only reason I am posting right now is that I am at the Library. I will answer your questions tomorrow, if I am permitted? I work 6am to 2pm.

Do you want me to respond from a biblical standpoint or as a human being? :mf_surrender:

Have a good one. :cross:

That was actually aimed at someone else who was gloating that nobody had responded to your post, and I asked him if he wanted to reply to my response. I&#39;m sorry if I came across as being snappy with you. I do want to hear your opinion definitely. I pretty much know what the biblical standpoint is, I spent most of my life as an evangelical Christian. What I want to know is whether the Christians on here, particularly the ones of the evangelical persuasion, really believe that there are human beings who deserve the extreme torture of hell. Not the "all have sinned" stuff, but deep down in your heart, do you believe that there is any ammount of sin that is deserving of that extremity of torture?

 

[therealUT]

That was actually aimed at someone else who was gloating that nobody had responded to your post, and I asked him if he wanted to reply to my response. I&#39;m sorry if I came across as being snappy with you. I do want to hear your opinion definitely. I pretty much know what the biblical standpoint is, I spent most of my life as an evangelical Christian. What I want to know is whether the Christians on here, particularly the ones of the evangelical persuasion, really believe that there are human beings who deserve the extreme torture of hell. Not the "all have sinned" stuff, but deep down in your heart, do you believe that there is any ammount of sin that is deserving of that extremity of torture?

I think there are very rare cases in which one would be subject to eternal damnation, however, I tend to try to adhere to the following concepts:

The sinfulness involved in breaking this precept was so very great precisely because the difficulty of submission was so very slight.

St. Augustine is referring to the original fall from grace. He makes clear that degree of sin is judged on one&#39;s circumstance.

Nam esse vitium et non nocere non potest.
For, there is no such thing as something wrong that does no harm.

1847 God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."116 To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hope you find some of this helpfulf MBRO.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

That was actually aimed at someone else who was gloating that nobody had responded to your post, and I asked him if he wanted to reply to my response. I&#39;m sorry if I came across as being snappy with you. I do want to hear your opinion definitely. I pretty much know what the biblical standpoint is, I spent most of my life as an evangelical Christian. What I want to know is whether the Christians on here, particularly the ones of the evangelical persuasion, really believe that there are human beings who deserve the extreme torture of hell. Not the "all have sinned" stuff, but deep down in your heart, do you believe that there is any ammount of sin that is deserving of that extremity of torture?

I figured as much, but I just wanted to make sure. :air_kiss:

Wow, as a human being do I think there is any amount of sin that is deserving of eternal torture?

As a human, I would quickly point out Hilter or Stalin types.

Then this is what I struggle with constantly. Just throw out an example, lets say a Doctor works at a Children Hospital all of his life and helps children from all different backgrounds get better and such. The person does not know Jesus as his personal savior but he lives a "good" life. What should be his fate? He helped so many people but in the end he did not believe in Jesus.

I guess in our every day life every thing comes down to choices. Our guess of focus is "Why did God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden?"

God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice, to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be “free” they had to have a choice.

God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world. Why, then, did God put the tree in the Garden of Eden and allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve?God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice. God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free wills, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.

One choice brough about eternal punishment. That choice also led to "one" path/choice to eternal salvation.

*Just to sit down and think about it.......tough subject...........

*Sorry if I keep referencing the Bible.......just the positional side I am taking during the discussion. I know I am sorta "preaching" to the choir.

 

[Lexvol]

That was actually aimed at someone else who was gloating that nobody had responded to your post, and I asked him if he wanted to reply to my response. I&#39;m sorry if I came across as being snappy with you. I do want to hear your opinion definitely. I pretty much know what the biblical standpoint is, I spent most of my life as an evangelical Christian. What I want to know is whether the Christians on here, particularly the ones of the evangelical persuasion, really believe that there are human beings who deserve the extreme torture of hell. Not the "all have sinned" stuff, but deep down in your heart, do you believe that there is any ammount of sin that is deserving of that extremity of torture?

At this point we must factor the idea of free will. This may also sound a little evangelical, but I think there are people who, like the "fallen angel" eventually choose damnation (whatever that may be) rather than becoming a servant to a Creator. There are those who choose to rule in "hell" rather than serve in heaven. Otherwise the notion of free will is meaningless to the Creator. This is where I again recommend the book "The Great Divorce."

 

[OrangeEmpire]

This is where I again recommend the book "The Great Divorce."

Good choice....... :biggrin2:

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

At this point we must factor the idea of free will. This may also sound a little evangelical, but I think there are people who, like the "fallen angel" eventually choose damnation (whatever that may be) rather than becoming a servant to a Creator. There are those who choose to rule in "hell" rather than serve in heaven. Otherwise the notion of free will is meaningless to the Creator. This is where I again recommend the book "The Great Divorce."

I will definitely get my hands on a copy of "The Great Divorce". It sounds like a good read.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

The sinfulness involved in breaking this precept was so very great precisely because the difficulty of submission was so very slight.

St. Augustine is referring to the original fall from grace. He makes clear that degree of sin is judged on one&#39;s circumstance.

Of course in the evangelical tradition that I came from, sin is sin no matter how small or how big. The idea of varying degrees of sin would be more logical.

Nam esse vitium et non nocere non potest.
For, there is no such thing as something wrong that does no harm.

If the concept is that something that does no harm is not wrong, then I wholeheartedly agree, but there are many things that are considered wrong that do no harm.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Wow, as a human being do I think there is any amount of sin that is deserving of eternal torture?

As a human, I would quickly point out Hilter or Stalin types.

As bad as they were, and I think we can add a few others to that list, like Hussen and Pol Pot, I&#39;m not sure even they would deserve eternal torment. I guess the biggest problem I have with the concept of hell, at least as it is understood in the evangelical community, is that there will never be an end to the torment. I can understand that there needs to be punishment for sin, but the part about never ending punishment is where I have such a hard time.

Then this is what I struggle with constantly. Just throw out an example, lets say a Doctor works at a Children Hospital all of his life and helps children from all different backgrounds get better and such. The person does not know Jesus as his personal savior but he lives a "good" life. What should be his fate? He helped so many people but in the end he did not believe in Jesus.

I have a problem with that notion too. And what about the Aborigine who has never even heard of Jesus, nevertheless has lived a "good life". I know the christian will say that is what missionaries are for, but there will still be those who die having never heard of Jesus of Nazareth, who were otherwise good people.

I guess in our every day life every thing comes down to choices. Our guess of focus is "Why did God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden?"

God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice, to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be “free” they had to have a choice.

God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world. Why, then, did God put the tree in the Garden of Eden and allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve?God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice. God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free wills, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.

I understand that without the temptation there would be no free will, but at the same time, If God knew what the outcome would be, yet chose to put the tree in the garden anyway, then man was doomed to fail before he was ever created. It&#39;s a very deep subject either way you look at it.

*Sorry if I keep referencing the Bible.......just the positional side I am taking during the discussion.

Not a problem k:

 

[therealUT]

Of course in the evangelical tradition that I came from, sin is sin no matter how small or how big. The idea of varying degrees of sin would be more logical.


If the concept is that something that does no harm is not wrong, then I wholeheartedly agree, but there are many things that are considered wrong that do no harm.

I was also taught by the priests and nuns during my tenure in highschool that there are 3 conditions that must be met to have sinned:

1. You must know the action is wrong.
2. You must desire to do it.
3. You must actually do it.