volmanjr
Just Living the Good Life!
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(OrangeEmpire @ Jul 25 said:Praying through other humans......interesting, let me think about this one for a bit.
therealUT we have to have a good discussion about Catholicism. I want to argue Catholicism truly gained its power through the deeds of Attila the Hun.
(Lexvol @ Jul 25 said:Catholicism is Early Christianity they are one in the same.
Thank Alexander for the universal understanding of the Greek language, and Constantine for bringing the religion to the empire.
Christians and non-Christians alike should be allowed to keep the faith of their own religious beliefs and worship.
Edict of Milan, 313 AD
(OrangeEmpire @ Jul 25 said:Genesis 3 the fall of man:
Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God's command. Genesis 3:1-6.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they separated mankind from the good life God had given to mankind. Genesis 3:10, 23.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they damaged mankind's relationship with God. Genesis 3:8.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they brought physical suffering on mankind. Genesis 3:16-19.
God punished the sinners, Adam and Eve, and cursed the serpent who led Adam and Eve to sin. Genesis 3:14-19.
The effects of this single sin were felt not only by the sinners, but also all of mankind who followed. Genesis 3:15-19.
Situation 1. Cindy, Julie, and Tammy were riding their bicycles one afternoon. Cindy's and Julie's parents let them ride to the corner store and get a coke whenever they want. Tammy's parents never let her ride to the store without an adult. Cindy and Julie convince Tammy to ride to the store. When they go in the store, they meet Tammy's dad buying milk. Cindy and Julie led Tammy to disobey. Tammy disobeyed. The trust between Tammy and her parents has been damaged.
Situation 2. Tommy has a younger brother named Sam and a younger sister named Katy. The family rule says that no one eats in the TV room. Tommy always eats in the TV room when his parents are not around. One day Sam and Katy decided to eat a snack in the TV room since Tommy always did it. Sam spilled his juice and stained the carpet. Tommy's example led Sam and Katy to disobey. Sam and Katy disobeyed. The parents had to pay to repair the carpet. Trust in the family was damaged.
Romans 5.12 says that sin and death ENTERED the world because of the sin of Adam & Eve. This means that death was NOT present in the world before the sin of Adam & Eve.
Romans 6.23 says that the wages of SIN is death. If Adam & Eve had not sinned, there would have been no death.
Adam & Eve were NOT sinners when God created them. When they were created, Adam & Eve had no sin nature. In other words, they were neither good nor evil because they were innocent and had never been tested.
God Himself planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil for the very purpose of testing Adam & Eve as to whether they would choose "good" (trusting & obeying God) or "evil" (distrusting & disobeying God).
Or you can take another view that... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different.
Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another.
We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well.
Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.
In Hoc Signo Vinces
And that still doesn't really answer my question, but thanks for trying.
So what exactly was this great sin that caused such suffering to be brought on mankind? They are a piece of flippin fruit. Certainly sounds like the punishment fits the crime to me :shakehead:(OrangeEmpire @ Jul 25 said:Genesis 3 the fall of man:
Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God's command. Genesis 3:1-6.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they separated mankind from the good life God had given to mankind. Genesis 3:10, 23.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they damaged mankind's relationship with God. Genesis 3:8.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they brought physical suffering on mankind. Genesis 3:16-19.
God punished the sinners, Adam and Eve, and cursed the serpent who led Adam and Eve to sin. Genesis 3:14-19.
The effects of this single sin were felt not only by the sinners, but also all of mankind who followed. Genesis 3:15-19.
But Tammy's parents didn't throw her into a lake of fire for eternity did they?(OrangeEmpire @ Jul 25 said:Situation 1. Cindy, Julie, and Tammy were riding their bicycles one afternoon. Cindy's and Julie's parents let them ride to the corner store and get a coke whenever they want. Tammy's parents never let her ride to the store without an adult. Cindy and Julie convince Tammy to ride to the store. When they go in the store, they meet Tammy's dad buying milk. Cindy and Julie led Tammy to disobey. Tammy disobeyed. The trust between Tammy and her parents has been damaged.
Are Sam and Katy going to be tortured for eternity by their parents for ruining the carpet?(OrangeEmpire @ Jul 25 said:Situation 2. Tommy has a younger brother named Sam and a younger sister named Katy. The family rule says that no one eats in the TV room. Tommy always eats in the TV room when his parents are not around. One day Sam and Katy decided to eat a snack in the TV room since Tommy always did it. Sam spilled his juice and stained the carpet. Tommy's example led Sam and Katy to disobey. Sam and Katy disobeyed. The parents had to pay to repair the carpet. Trust in the family was damaged.
Isn't God all knowing? Didn't He already know that they would choose to eat from the tree? Yet He chose to plant it in the garden anyway, knowing what the outcome would be. If I place a loaded gun on the table, tell my kids to leave it alone, then leave the house.(OrangeEmpire @ Jul 25 said:Adam & Eve were NOT sinners when God created them. When they were created, Adam & Eve had no sin nature. In other words, they were neither good nor evil because they were innocent and had never been tested.
God Himself planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil for the very purpose of testing Adam & Eve as to whether they would choose "good" (trusting & obeying God) or "evil" (distrusting & disobeying God).
That's because this loud mouthed, obnoxious Danica nut hasn't been around today.(OrangeSquare @ Jul 25 said:Interesting to me that OWB keeps poking fun and asking silly little questions, but when OrangeEmpire knocks one out of the park, it's like crickets chirping in here.
(MyBloodRunnethOrange @ Jul 25 said:That's because this loud mouthed, obnoxious Danica nut hasn't been around today.
Care to respond to my reply to OrangeEmpire?
(MyBloodRunnethOrange @ Jul 25 said:I guess my main question is this. Why is blood necessary before sin can be forgiven? Is God not able to simply say I forgive you? Why is it necessary for good people to be tortured for eternity simply because they didn't have a proper understanding of theology?
(Lexvol @ Jul 25 said:I don't know if any of you guys are into CS Lewis (Chronicles of Narnia guy) but he wrote a book titled "The Great Divorce", and I recommend it for anyone trying to reconcile beliefs of heaven and hell.
Anyone interested in the premise and plot can PM me.
I appreciate your view realUT, and the idea of purgatory is something I will read up on. I'm basically trying to get across exactly what it is we're talking about here. Evangelicals talk about everyone "deserving" to go to hell, or non believers getting what they "deserve", like they're talking about a prision sentence or something. What we're talking about is extreme torture, beyond anything the human mind can possibly comprehend. We're talking about a torture that will never be allowed to end. It's people being thrown into a lake of fire, and being forced to endure unspeakable pain and suffering and misery, but they won't even be allowed the mercy of death to ease their suffering, instead they will have to endure the pain and suffering without end for eternity. I want to know if evangelicals really believe that anybody truly deserves that degree of torture.(therealUT @ Jul 25 said:Good people aren't tortured for eternity. This is where the idea of purgatory comes into play.
(MyBloodRunnethOrange @ Jul 25 said:I appreciate your view realUT, and the idea of purgatory is something I will read up on. I'm basically trying to get across exactly what it is we're talking about here. Evangelicals talk about everyone "deserving" to go to hell, or non believers getting what they "deserve", like they're talking about a prision sentence or something. What we're talking about is extreme torture, beyond anything the human mind can possibly comprehend. We're talking about a torture that will never be allowed to end. It's people being thrown into a lake of fire, and being forced to endure unspeakable pain and suffering and misery, but they won't even be allowed the mercy of death to ease their suffering, instead they will have to endure the pain and suffering without end for eternity. I want to know if evangelicals really believe that anybody truly deserves that degree of torture.