Heaven or Hell

[volmanjr]

I want to argue Catholicism truly gained its power through the deeds of Attila the Hun.

:drive2:

 

[therealUT]

Praying through other humans......interesting, let me think about this one for a bit.

therealUT we have to have a good discussion about Catholicism. I want to argue Catholicism truly gained its power through the deeds of Attila the Hun.

On the point of praying through other humans, it is a simple concept once you begin thinking out of the box. Christians frequently ask other Christians to pray for some cause or another...as if God will not hear just one person's prayer. However, praying in community often provides comfort to the suffering. As Catholics, we believe in the notion of Saints (certain souls we feel are most definitely in Heaven.) We feel that asking these Saints to also pray to God with us, is pretty much the same thing but better because they, being in Heaven, are actually in the presence of God.

Interesting argument, and the time period is close. However, the largest conversions from paganism to Christianity (which was Catholic) in the Roman Empire occured from around 365 A.D. to 390 A.D. Attila didn't rule over Europe until 434...

The conversion beginning around 365 and losing speed about 25 years later is well discussed in St. Augustine's City of God. Greek 'seers' had stated that the work's of Christ were really just black magic stemming from Peter and that these farces would continue for 365 years, at which point the hoax would be revealed and would end abruptly. When these very trusted 'seers' were deemed to have been wrong at the 365 year mark, many Roman pagans felt that their mythology was inferior to the religion of Christianity.

 

[therealUT]

You also must remember that Pope Leo (St. Leo) rode on horseback, unprotected to the outskirts of Rome and persuaded Attila not to attack the city, 450 AD (give or take 2 years.)

Yet, later, when the Vandals came through, St. Leo tried to same approach and the Vandals agreed to loot peacably, however, they still looted Rome.

The Catholic Church didn't truly become a world power until Charlemagne, the end of the eighth century. Attila the Hun was long gone by then.

 

[Lexvol]

Catholicism is Early Christianity they are one in the same.

Thank Alexander for the universal understanding of the Greek language, and Constantine for bringing the religion to the empire.

 

[therealUT]

Catholicism is Early Christianity they are one in the same.

Thank Alexander for the universal understanding of the Greek language, and Constantine for bringing the religion to the empire.

In Hoc Signo Vinces

Constantine, the father of religious freedom:

Christians and non-Christians alike should be allowed to keep the faith of their own religious beliefs and worship.

Edict of Milan, 313 AD

 

[vader]

In Hoc Signo Vinces

Constantine, the father of religious freedom:

That's why they re-named Istanbul for him

 

[OWB]

Interesting to me that OWB keeps poking fun and asking silly little questions, but when OrangeEmpire knocks one out of the park, it's like crickets chirping in here.

Uhhh yeah..

OE didn't post anything I'm not familiar with.

 

[OWB]

I have always called it blind faith.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that you have to have blind faith in W. I know you think he's the daughter of God, but come on.

 

[OWB]

 

[OWB]

Genesis 3 the fall of man:

Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God's command. Genesis 3:1-6.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they separated mankind from the good life God had given to mankind. Genesis 3:10, 23.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they damaged mankind's relationship with God. Genesis 3:8.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they brought physical suffering on mankind. Genesis 3:16-19.
God punished the sinners, Adam and Eve, and cursed the serpent who led Adam and Eve to sin. Genesis 3:14-19.
The effects of this single sin were felt not only by the sinners, but also all of mankind who followed. Genesis 3:15-19.

Situation 1. Cindy, Julie, and Tammy were riding their bicycles one afternoon. Cindy's and Julie's parents let them ride to the corner store and get a coke whenever they want. Tammy's parents never let her ride to the store without an adult. Cindy and Julie convince Tammy to ride to the store. When they go in the store, they meet Tammy's dad buying milk. Cindy and Julie led Tammy to disobey. Tammy disobeyed. The trust between Tammy and her parents has been damaged.

Situation 2. Tommy has a younger brother named Sam and a younger sister named Katy. The family rule says that no one eats in the TV room. Tommy always eats in the TV room when his parents are not around. One day Sam and Katy decided to eat a snack in the TV room since Tommy always did it. Sam spilled his juice and stained the carpet. Tommy's example led Sam and Katy to disobey. Sam and Katy disobeyed. The parents had to pay to repair the carpet. Trust in the family was damaged.

Romans 5.12 says that sin and death ENTERED the world because of the sin of Adam & Eve. This means that death was NOT present in the world before the sin of Adam & Eve.

Romans 6.23 says that the wages of SIN is death. If Adam & Eve had not sinned, there would have been no death.

Adam & Eve were NOT sinners when God created them. When they were created, Adam & Eve had no sin nature. In other words, they were neither good nor evil because they were innocent and had never been tested.

God Himself planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil for the very purpose of testing Adam & Eve as to whether they would choose "good" (trusting & obeying God) or "evil" (distrusting & disobeying God).

Or you can take another view that... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different.

Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another.

We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well.

And that still doesn't really answer my question, but thanks for trying.

 

[therealUT]

I am not in any way trying to convert you to anything OWB, as you have clearly seen I could care less about someone's belief as long as they live a good life.

That being said though, logic can only go so far in explaining the existence of the universe. Newton's First Law states:

Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

Therefore, some higher, unexplainable energy had to have set everything in motion. Whether that energy (or God to some,) meddles in the present affairs of men is highly questionable. IMO (which actually contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Church,) I do not feel that God gets involved all that much. I think he set the world in motion, created the living (through evolution,) and sent Christ at a time when he felt it served a great purpose. Other than that, I feel God observes and passes final judgement.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

In Hoc Signo Vinces

Hehehe family motto....

And that still doesn't really answer my question, but thanks for trying.

Ok, you do not want a biblical answer, what are you looking for?

Scientific data? :blush:

Sin, faith, redemtion.............?

It comes down to faith.....................................

 

[orange+white=heaven]

"So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell,
blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?"

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Genesis 3 the fall of man:

Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God's command. Genesis 3:1-6.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they separated mankind from the good life God had given to mankind. Genesis 3:10, 23.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they damaged mankind's relationship with God. Genesis 3:8.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they brought physical suffering on mankind. Genesis 3:16-19.
God punished the sinners, Adam and Eve, and cursed the serpent who led Adam and Eve to sin. Genesis 3:14-19.
The effects of this single sin were felt not only by the sinners, but also all of mankind who followed. Genesis 3:15-19.

So what exactly was this great sin that caused such suffering to be brought on mankind? They are a piece of flippin fruit. Certainly sounds like the punishment fits the crime to me :shakehead:

Situation 1. Cindy, Julie, and Tammy were riding their bicycles one afternoon. Cindy's and Julie's parents let them ride to the corner store and get a coke whenever they want. Tammy's parents never let her ride to the store without an adult. Cindy and Julie convince Tammy to ride to the store. When they go in the store, they meet Tammy's dad buying milk. Cindy and Julie led Tammy to disobey. Tammy disobeyed. The trust between Tammy and her parents has been damaged.

But Tammy's parents didn't throw her into a lake of fire for eternity did they?

Situation 2. Tommy has a younger brother named Sam and a younger sister named Katy. The family rule says that no one eats in the TV room. Tommy always eats in the TV room when his parents are not around. One day Sam and Katy decided to eat a snack in the TV room since Tommy always did it. Sam spilled his juice and stained the carpet. Tommy's example led Sam and Katy to disobey. Sam and Katy disobeyed. The parents had to pay to repair the carpet. Trust in the family was damaged.

Are Sam and Katy going to be tortured for eternity by their parents for ruining the carpet?

Adam & Eve were NOT sinners when God created them. When they were created, Adam & Eve had no sin nature. In other words, they were neither good nor evil because they were innocent and had never been tested.

God Himself planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil for the very purpose of testing Adam & Eve as to whether they would choose "good" (trusting & obeying God) or "evil" (distrusting & disobeying God).

Isn't God all knowing? Didn't He already know that they would choose to eat from the tree? Yet He chose to plant it in the garden anyway, knowing what the outcome would be. If I place a loaded gun on the table, tell my kids to leave it alone, then leave the house.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Interesting to me that OWB keeps poking fun and asking silly little questions, but when OrangeEmpire knocks one out of the park, it's like crickets chirping in here.

That's because this loud mouthed, obnoxious Danica nut hasn't been around today.

Care to respond to my reply to OrangeEmpire?

 

[OWB]

That's because this loud mouthed, obnoxious Danica nut hasn't been around today.

Care to respond to my reply to OrangeEmpire?

Not to mention that OrangeSquare posted that comment at 6:58 am....

Anybody who knows me knows that I'm not up until noon...

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

I guess my main question is this. Why is blood necessary before sin can be forgiven? Is God not able to simply say I forgive you? Why is it necessary for good people to be tortured for eternity simply because they didn't have a proper understanding of theology?

 

[therealUT]

I guess my main question is this. Why is blood necessary before sin can be forgiven? Is God not able to simply say I forgive you? Why is it necessary for good people to be tortured for eternity simply because they didn't have a proper understanding of theology?

Good people aren't tortured for eternity. This is where the idea of purgatory comes into play.

 

[Lexvol]

I don't know if any of you guys are into CS Lewis (Chronicles of Narnia guy) but he wrote a book titled "The Great Divorce", and I recommend it for anyone trying to reconcile beliefs of heaven and hell.

Anyone interested in the premise and plot can PM me.

 

[therealUT]

I don't know if any of you guys are into CS Lewis (Chronicles of Narnia guy) but he wrote a book titled "The Great Divorce", and I recommend it for anyone trying to reconcile beliefs of heaven and hell.

Anyone interested in the premise and plot can PM me.

I instructed Smoke Em to purchase and read that book...about 2 days ago, in fact. Excellent book, my friend!

 

[Lexvol]

My primary problem with judgement (in an evnagelical sense)is the human condition itself. Regardless of what humanists say we are vile, biological creatures who have desires to eat until we are full, procreate, and one up our nieghbor in all circumstances. How can we be expected to always make the right decisions?

 

[therealUT]

My problem is not with the judgment, as I believe God to be just and merciful, I feel that in only rare cases will he condemn any of his creations to hell. I feel in most cases, he places souls in purgatory.

I have a large problem with people who state that only certain groups of God's creations will make it into Heaven. If every single person who professed they were a Christian made it into Heaven, that would only amount to about 20% of the human souls God created. I think that is a little more than cold and heartless from a God whom these same Christians refer to as "All-Merciful."

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Good people aren't tortured for eternity. This is where the idea of purgatory comes into play.

I appreciate your view realUT, and the idea of purgatory is something I will read up on. I'm basically trying to get across exactly what it is we're talking about here. Evangelicals talk about everyone "deserving" to go to hell, or non believers getting what they "deserve", like they're talking about a prision sentence or something. What we're talking about is extreme torture, beyond anything the human mind can possibly comprehend. We're talking about a torture that will never be allowed to end. It's people being thrown into a lake of fire, and being forced to endure unspeakable pain and suffering and misery, but they won't even be allowed the mercy of death to ease their suffering, instead they will have to endure the pain and suffering without end for eternity. I want to know if evangelicals really believe that anybody truly deserves that degree of torture.

 

[therealUT]

I appreciate your view realUT, and the idea of purgatory is something I will read up on. I'm basically trying to get across exactly what it is we're talking about here. Evangelicals talk about everyone "deserving" to go to hell, or non believers getting what they "deserve", like they're talking about a prision sentence or something. What we're talking about is extreme torture, beyond anything the human mind can possibly comprehend. We're talking about a torture that will never be allowed to end. It's people being thrown into a lake of fire, and being forced to endure unspeakable pain and suffering and misery, but they won't even be allowed the mercy of death to ease their suffering, instead they will have to endure the pain and suffering without end for eternity. I want to know if evangelicals really believe that anybody truly deserves that degree of torture.

Not trying to convert you, because I honestly do not feel one must be Christian to live a good life and be rewarded for it in the afterlife. However, if you are interested the idea of Purgatory, pick up an NAB Bible sometime and read Maccabees and Wisdom. Also, as Lexvol and I have mentioned, The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis (fun and easy read, good even if you don't want to delve into the deeper meaning.)

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

I think my sister may have a NAB bible. I'll see if I can borrow it and read the Maccabees. I'll also look at my library to see if they have the C.S. Lewis book.