High school football rules discussion

#201
#201
@AlcoVol said:
Kickoff high in the air but short (12 yards) K catches the ball in the air (12 yards down field) without a fair catch signal given by R.
Flag is thrown for Kick catch interference.
What's the interpretation?
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If the ball didn't touch the ground this is kick catch interference.
 
#207
#207
@AlcoVol said:
The next ref to throw that flag will be the first.
I know we aren't going to call that in our assoc.....
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I've called it many times and will continue to call it. It's a safety issue and has been regularly discussed in both associations I've been affiliated with. What if the offending player gets flipped while in the act of hurdling and lands awkwardly, gets injured and there's no flag? Who gave you authority to ignore a foul, particularly one that is a safety issue? What do you tell an opposing coach who asks why it wasn't called?
 
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#211
#211
Can you touch on where each referee stands and what they are focusing on. I know each referee has a responsibility of what to watch for - it would be educational to get some info on how the team works together and has different responsibilities.
 
#212
#212
jps2194 said:
Can you touch on where each referee stands and what they are focusing on. I know each referee has a responsibility of what to watch for - it would be educational to get some info on how the team works together and has different responsibilities.
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Typically high school has been 5 man crews. We are now headed toward 7 man like college and NFL.

I will hit on 5 man the best I can.

Referee - this is the white hat. He blows the ready for play and starts the clock when needed. He stands in the offensive back field. Pre snap he counts the offense. You will see him and the umpire raise their fists. This means they have 11. Once the ball is snapped his primary responsibility is the QB on a pass play. He will normally trail the play and get stuff behind the ball. He also gives all signals for penalty enforcements.

Umpire - stands in the area with the linebackers. Pre snap he counts the offense and confirms with the referee. He also makes sure the offense has 5 linemen numbered 50-79. The ball is his responsibility before the snap. His primary responsibilities are guard-center-guard. When the ball is snapped he is watching the line of scrimmage. Holds and low blocks. He is also watching for ineligibles down field when it comes to the OL. He will roll in the direction of the play and clean up behind along with the referee.

Line Judge and Head Linesman - these are the guys on the ends of the line. They do basically the same job. The HL has the responsibility of the chains. Pre snap they are making sure there are at least 7 players on the line of scrimmage. They will get most of the false starts or encroachment calls. At the snap they will read run or pass and react accordingly. On a run they will let the runner pass them and then follow. They will scan the area around the ball carrier watching for illegal blocks, holds, and other stuff near the point of attack. When they feel the ball carrier is about to be hit he will then become their main responsibility.

Back judge - he is the one that stands deep on the defensive side of the ball. He counts the defense before the snap and times the play clock. He won't have many calls during the night but when he does they are usually big, like pass interference. He watches the action in front of the ball carrier.

The goal is to keep plays boxed in. There will rarely be a foul called that is not near the point of attack (the ball) unless it involves something safety related or unsportsmanlike.

Hope this helps a little as this is a pretty brief overview of responsibilities in 5 man mechanics. If you want to know more, just ask.....oh yeah, there is only one referee on the field :)
 
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#213
#213
footballref said:
Typically high school has been 5 man crews. We are now headed toward 7 man like college and NFL.

I will hit on 5 man the best I can.

Referee - this is the white hat. He blows the ready for play and starts the clock when needed. He stands in the offensive back field. Pre snap he counts the offense. You will see him and the umpire raise their fists. This means they have 11. Once the ball is snapped his primary responsibility is the QB on a pass play. He will normally trail the play and get stuff behind the ball. He also gives all signals for penalty enforcements.

Umpire - stands in the area with the linebackers. Pre snap he counts the offense and confirms with the referee. He also makes sure the offense has 5 linemen numbered 50-79. The ball is his responsibility before the snap. His primary responsibilities are guard-center-guard. When the ball is snapped he is watching the line of scrimmage. Holds and low blocks. He is also watching for ineligibles down field when it comes to the OL. He will roll in the direction of the play and clean up behind along with the referee.

Line Judge and Head Linesman - these are the guys on the ends of the line. They do basically the same job. The HL has the responsibility of the chains. Pre snap they are making sure there are at least 7 players on the line of scrimmage. They will get most of the false starts or encroachment calls. At the snap they will read run or pass and react accordingly. On a run they will let the runner pass them and then follow. They will scan the area around the ball carrier watching for illegal blocks, holds, and other stuff near the point of attack. When they feel the ball carrier is about to be hit he will then become their main responsibility.

Back judge - he is the one that stands deep on the defensive side of the ball. He counts the defense before the snap and times the play clock. He won't have many calls during the night but when he does they are usually big, like pass interference. He watches the action in front of the ball carrier.

The goal is to keep plays boxed in. There will rarely be a foul called that is not near the point of attack (the ball) unless it involves something safety related or unsportsmanlike.

Hope this helps a little as this is a pretty brief overview of responsibilities in 5 man mechanics. If you want to know more, just ask.....oh yeah, there is only one referee on the field :)
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Cool, thanks. That's good information but I should have been a little more specific in my question as I knew where everyone stands in general terms. I was asking more if there is an exact spot where the back judges, umpires, etc stand. Is it always X yards from the ball or just a general location. Of course, the line judge always stands at the line of scrimmage on the sideline. I also know they aren't all actual referees - but that's much easier to type :p
 
#214
#214
jps2194 said:
Cool, thanks. That's good information but I should have been a little more specific in my question as I knew where everyone stands in general terms. I was asking more if there is an exact spot where the back judges, umpires, etc stand. Is it always X yards from the ball or just a general location. Of course, the line judge always stands at the line of scrimmage on the sideline. I also know they aren't all actual referees - but that's much easier to type :p
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Umpire 5-7 yds from LOS, BJ 12-15. Sometimes depends on how deep the safety is
 
#215
#215
jps2194 said:
Cool, thanks. That's good information but I should have been a little more specific in my question as I knew where everyone stands in general terms. I was asking more if there is an exact spot where the back judges, umpires, etc stand. Is it always X yards from the ball or just a general location. Of course, the line judge always stands at the line of scrimmage on the sideline. I also know they aren't all actual referees - but that's much easier to type :p
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I am not really sure about the referee without checking the book. He should always be on the QBs throwing arm side.

The umpire is 5-7 or 1-2 yards behind the linebackers.

Back judge would be about 18.
 
#218
#218
FR, in last nights game very late we had 4th and 1 (more like 1/2). Went with a QB sneak. It looked like the QB made it but it was close. I was told one ref signaled for a TD. ( I did not see that part) the white hat ran in and waved it off and said no good pretty quick.

I was told later that our RB was pushing the QB (he was) and the ref waved it off because of that.

If that was the call from the ref ( I don't buy it) wouldn't the refs have ruled TD and thrown a flag? Then treat it like a penalty.

Thanks
 
#219
#219
MaxamusXIII said:
FR, in last nights game very late we had 4th and 1 (more like 1/2). Went with a QB sneak. It looked like the QB made it but it was close. I was told one ref signaled for a TD. ( I did not see that part) the white hat ran in and waved it off and said no good pretty quick.

I was told later that our RB was pushing the QB (he was) and the ref waved it off because of that.

If that was the call from the ref ( I don't buy it) wouldn't the refs have ruled TD and thrown a flag? Then treat it like a penalty.

Thanks
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Helping the runner is illegal.

The rule says:

An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist his forward
progress.

It is a 5 yard foul.

You would drop the flag and continue to officiate the play.
 
#220
#220
footballref said:
Helping the runner is illegal.

The rule says:

An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist his forward
progress.

It is a 5 yard foul.

You would drop the flag and continue to officiate the play.
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That's what I thought.
We just didn't get there.

Why is that a rule, in your opinion ?
Is there a safety concern?
 
#221
#221
FR,
I saw this in a thread on a high school football site.

***I saw something tonight I thought I'd never see.
A running back lowers his head and runs over a defensive back.
Great football play, right? Wrong!
15 yard personal foul on the running back.
I'm all for safety, but if a RB can't lower his head and shoulders while running the ball, who's being protected? Not the ball carrier.
The running back had his shoulders square and got low. He just happened to make helmet to helmet contact. What he supposed to do there?***


I thought that the targeting foul was a defensive foul. Am I and that poster wrong?
 
#222
#222
MaxamusXIII said:
FR,
I saw this in a thread on a high school football site.

***I saw something tonight I thought I'd never see.
A running back lowers his head and runs over a defensive back.
Great football play, right? Wrong!
15 yard personal foul on the running back.
I'm all for safety, but if a RB can't lower his head and shoulders while running the ball, who's being protected? Not the ball carrier.
The running back had his shoulders square and got low. He just happened to make helmet to helmet contact. What he supposed to do there?***


I thought that the targeting foul was a defensive foul. Am I and that poster wrong?
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There are several different fouls that fall under the illegal helmet contact umbrella: Face tackling, Butt-blocking, spearing, and the new targeting rule. They are all personal fouls, and all carry a 15 yard penalty. There is nothing in the rule that excludes a runner form being able to be called for targeting, but under the interpretation, spearing would be the more appropriate call. One of the elements of targeting is striking a defenseless player, and it's hard to argue that someone attempting to make a tackle is defenseless. Any deliberate contact w/ the crown of the helmet is a foul, but fits the definition of spearing better than it does targeting.
Spearing by the runner is not called often, but under the definition, and w/ all of the emphasis now being placed on helmet contact, expect it to be called more often. Some officials may call it targeting, others will choose spearing, but it's essentially the same penalty since high school does not have an ejection provision in the targeting penalty as college does.
 
#224
#224
MaxamusXIII said:
FR,
I saw this in a thread on a high school football site.

***I saw something tonight I thought I'd never see.
A running back lowers his head and runs over a defensive back.
Great football play, right? Wrong!
15 yard personal foul on the running back.
I'm all for safety, but if a RB can't lower his head and shoulders while running the ball, who's being protected? Not the ball carrier.
The running back had his shoulders square and got low. He just happened to make helmet to helmet contact. What he supposed to do there?***


I thought that the targeting foul was a defensive foul. Am I and that poster wrong?
Click to expand...

The definition of targeting is:

Targeting is an act of taking aim and initiating contact to an opponent above the shoulders with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow, or shoulders.

Like most questions/scenarios this is something you would have to see to have an opinion on it and that is the main reason I won't really get into specific play scenarios described. Targeting is new this year.
 
#225
#225
On a pass interference call in the end zone where the receiver catches the ball. He was awarded the td and a 15 yard penalty on the kickoff. I thought it had to be one or the other.
 
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