How close is too close?

#51
#51
DC Vol said:
And Christians above both. Do you really want to add up the numbers?
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trying to pin numbers of those murdered by or in the name of any religion is impossible. We don't even have a good idea of how many Christians were slaughtered by fellow Christians during the inquisition, best we can do is estimate to the closest million even with depictions and stories from the different histories of Christianity.

Trying to attribute numbers to civilizations that were closed to the western world for centuries and viewed justice and murder much differently further complicates any attempt to put numbers on and make this comparison. In short I'm simply saying there is no way to discern or compare the number of murders by religious affiliation. At best I would be comfortable saying both religions have a fairly equal history of violence to non-believers. Islam just happens to be going through a peak in religious violence therefore they live with the stigma attached to it.
 
#52
#52
DC Vol said:
Keeping their heads on their shoulders is more important to most that are quiet.
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Just out of curiosity have you really thought about what this actually says of, if not the religion itself, at least a significant portion of those in power within that religion?
 
#53
#53
sjt18 said:
Then they're a religion of thugs and cowards?

Are you seriously contending that Christians would not do all they could to stop those committing terrorist acts in the name of Christianity?
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So the various populaces throughout the inquisition were thugs and cowards as well? They stayed silent in order to prevent everything they had from being taken and their families killed after being compelled to confess imaginary crimes via torture.
 
#54
#54
I asked because heard on news this wknd that there is already a mosque, plus two adult book stores, and an adult lingerie shop, all already within 4 blocks of Ground Zero. I point it out to diel the notion that the area is, but for this new mosque, some kind of sacrosanct and peaceful place. The addition of the mosque is not changing the character of the area.
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#56
#56
hndog609 said:
Just out of curiosity have you really thought about what this actually says of, if not the religion itself, at least a significant portion of those in power within that religion?
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Yes, I do. I've know families that have spoken out and have been beheaded and left out on display. One of my best friends is Iraqi (Chaldean) and he had about 2/3 of his entire family tree wiped out due to this. So, yes, I certainly know where they're coming from.

I certainly understand valuing yourself and your own children and wife over speaking out against something taking place a half a world away.

Calling them cowards is really pathetic.
 
#57
#57
KB5252 said:
trying to pin numbers of those murdered by or in the name of any religion is impossible. We don't even have a good idea of how many Christians were slaughtered by fellow Christians during the inquisition, best we can do is estimate to the closest million even with depictions and stories from the different histories of Christianity.

Trying to attribute numbers to civilizations that were closed to the western world for centuries and viewed justice and murder much differently further complicates any attempt to put numbers on and make this comparison. In short I'm simply saying there is no way to discern or compare the number of murders by religious affiliation. At best I would be comfortable saying both religions have a fairly equal history of violence to non-believers. Islam just happens to be going through a peak in religious violence therefore they live with the stigma attached to it.
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Counting the endless wars of Protestant vs. Catholic, Crusades, Inquisition as well as adding in the fact that the Nazi's used religion as cause to wipe out Orthodox and Jews... yeah... I would easily say that tips the scales in favor of Christians.

It doesn't matter, however, that none of that was religious at heart but a power-struggle. I'm merely playing the game by the ignorant terms previously demonstrated by those convinced that Christianity is this shining beacon and Islam is this evil entity.

When, in fact, they've both been used in utterly disgraceful ways and trying to call one pure and the other paltry is completely asinine.
 
#58
#58
utvolpj said:
no they would just say they're not Christians and be done with it
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And they would be correct. "Christian" has a definition. I know that it has been perverted over the centuries but simply put: Christ like. IOW's, a person who lives according to the principles and doctrines of the NT.

Please guide me to the quotes where notable "moderate" Muslims have declared that the radicals are NOT Muslims and must be opposed. Islam also has a definition given by its scriptures and supporting writings.

The more "fundamental" a Christian is, the less likely they are to approve of aggression or force in the name of Christianity. The "fundamental" a Muslim is, the more likely they are to use or support violence in the name of Islam. This goes back to the two founders themselves: Christ and Mohammad.
 
#59
#59
DC Vol said:
Yes, I do. I've know families that have spoken out and have been beheaded and left out on display. One of my best friends is Iraqi (Chaldean) and he had about 2/3 of his entire family tree wiped out due to this. So, yes, I certainly know where they're coming from.

I certainly understand valuing yourself and your own children and wife over speaking out against something taking place a half a world away.

Calling them cowards is really pathetic.
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Apparently there was a disconnect here but that happens in this format. To put a more direct question to my earlier post:

What does it say about a religion, or perhaps more accurately a large number of those in power within a religion, when others can be literally afraid for their lives to speak out against violence committed in that religion's name?
 
#61
#61
sjt18 said:
And they would be correct. "Christian" has a definition. I know that it has been perverted over the centuries but simply put: Christ like. IOW's, a person who lives according to the principles and doctrines of the NT.
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of course it's easy to say but not to allow the same from the other side. Your claim is real Christians are this way but real Muslims are that way is ridiculous

sjt18 said:
Please guide me to the quotes where notable "moderate" Muslims have declared that the radicals are NOT Muslims and must be opposed. Islam also has a definition given by its scriptures and supporting writings.
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at work but from a quick google

Fethullah Gulen's Web Site : Press : Interview : Interview with Nuriye Akman of Zaman Daily

Our guilt is the guilt of a nation. It is the guilt of education. A real Muslim, who understood Islam in every aspect, cannot be a terrorist. It is hard for a man to stay as a Muslim if he becomes involved in terror. Religion does not approve of killing a man to reach a goal.
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#62
#62
hndog609 said:
Apparently there was a disconnect here but that happens in this format. To put a more direct question to my earlier post:

What does it say about a religion, or perhaps more accurately a large number of those in power within a religion, when others can be literally afraid for their lives to speak out against violence committed in that religion's name?
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It means they're human.
 
#63
#63
DC Vol said:
Counting the endless wars of Protestant vs. Catholic, Crusades, Inquisition as well as adding in the fact that the Nazi's used religion as cause to wipe out Orthodox and Jews... yeah... I would easily say that tips the scales in favor of Christians.
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Though I would not defend the perversion of the NT religion known as a the Holy Roman Empire... the Crusades were a response to Muslim military expansion.

Did you just say the Nazi's were Christian?... and you just got through chastising others for ignorance?

The Nazi's were Progressives taken to the logical extreme. The Nazi's and American Progressives of the same period shared eugenics, humanism, and economic ideals. The justification for genocide was NOT significantly religious... it was Hitler's attempt to help evolution along by eliminating lower races.

It doesn't matter, however, that none of that was religious at heart but a power-struggle. I'm merely playing the game by the ignorant terms previously demonstrated by those convinced that Christianity is this shining beacon and Islam is this evil entity.
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Christianity in its fundamental biblical form IS a shining beacon. Islam in its fundamental form IS an evil entity.

That can be disproved when this mass of supposed moderates rise up and throw off those who are supposedly perverting their cause.

When, in fact, they've both been used in utterly disgraceful ways and trying to call one pure and the other paltry is completely asinine.
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While we're at it... let's discuss more "humanistic/materialistic/evolutionary" products in politics. Say communism... how many millions were killed in the USSR for dissent? How about Cambodia? Vietnam? China? North Korea? FACT IS that atheistic philosophical/political thought has led to far more killing in a single century than ALL religious killing since the beginning of recorded history.
 
#64
#64
utvolpj said:
of course it's easy to say but not to allow the same from the other side. Your claim is real Christians are this way but real Muslims are that way is ridiculous
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No. It really isn't. It is "informed". The people who read the NT with strict literalism... will not be prone to violence. People who read the Quran and associated Islamic doctrinal texts with strict literalism... will be prone to or supportive of violence if necessary to spread Islam.
 
#65
#65
sjt18 said:
No. It really isn't. It is "informed". The people who read the NT with strict literalism... will not be prone to violence. People who read the Quran and associated Islamic doctrinal texts with strict literalism... will be prone to or supportive of violence if necessary to spread Islam.
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which is an opinion not supported by quotes from Muslims but just keep your head in the sand and think that it's an evil religion. I have no real dog in the fight since all organized religions are equally worthless IMO
 
#66
#66
Skimmed the article... didn't find a specific citation of the Quran. His concern seems to be PR rather than doctrine.
 
#67
#67
sjt18 said:
Skimmed the article... didn't find a specific citation of the Quran. His concern seems to be PR rather than doctrine.
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so he needs to quote verses for you to believe him? Good grief, he said exactly what you asked for and it was very simple to find.

A real Muslim, who understood Islam in every aspect, cannot be a terrorist.
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looks like you may not be as "informed" as you claim
 
#68
#68
utvolpj said:
which is an opinion not supported by quotes from Muslims but just keep your head in the sand and think that it's an evil religion. I have no real dog in the fight since all organized religions are equally worthless IMO
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Then yours is one of the most vicious dogs in the fight. You attack indiscriminately and won't be bothered with the facts since you have already concluded "all orgainzed religions are equally worthless". You have predetermined that all are to be discarded together.... then accuse others of having their heads in the sand.
 
#69
#69
sjt18 said:
Then yours is one of the most vicious dogs in the fight. You attack indiscriminately and won't be bothered with the facts since you have already concluded "all orgainzed religions are equally worthless". You have predetermined that all are to be discarded together.... then accuse others of having their heads in the sand.
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not really since I've done my homework
 
#70
#70
utvolpj said:
which is an opinion not supported by quotes from Muslims but just keep your head in the sand and think that it's an evil religion. I have no real dog in the fight since all organized religions are equally worthless IMO
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Except for the "religion" of murder and terror.
 
#71
#71
utvolpj said:
so he needs to quote verses for you to believe him? Good grief, he said exactly what you asked for and it was very simple to find.
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I would still like to see that rising mass of Muslims opposing the supposed small portion sympathetic with radical Islam.



looks like you may not be as "informed" as you claim
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Yes. The radicals quote chapter and verse to justify Islamic war against the infidels. This man stated an opinion without supporting it with anything or anyone else in authority.
 
#72
#72
DC Vol said:
It means they're human.
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Do you refer to those keeping quiet due to fear or to those that are instilling the fear? I completely understand the former, and for the reasons you previously cite. This was also never my point. My hope was for you to perhaps ponder a moment WHY these people would be afraid to speak out. And once you did, what does that say about that religion? Or, as I previously posited, if not the religion itself then at least a powerful component of those in charge?

For the purposes of the OP I don't have a huge issue with this mosque building. OTOH I didn't personally lose anyone on 9/11 either. As to my above question; if members of a religion can be literally afraid for their lives to speak out against violence, something you demonstrably cannot refute as you cite personal experience, then why should the rest of us not have reservations?
 
#74
#74
volfanjustin said:
Except for the "religion" of murder and terror.
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the sad fact is you represent a whole group of people who actually think this way. Obama isn't going to bring down the US because the ignorant citizens will beat him to it
 
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