How Many UT Signees On All-Midstate Baseball team?

[BigOrange51]

I find it hard to believe a middle income kid with average grades can go to vandy and pay a few thousand a semester without being a baseball recruit. If that same need based money isn't given to every student then it's countable money.

A kid with average grades couldn't get into Vandy without help from an athletic team. The same strings they are pulling with the admissions department may be similar to the strings they are able to pull in financial aid. If there are no hard income numbers that merit need based money, then they have a loophole. How could you regulate it? I doubt the baseball players who are getting need based money are massive outliers from the rest of the students, but they probably are the line in most cases. I think it all depends on how VU's financial aid is set up.

Regardless of all that, the solution is for the NCAA to give baseball more scholarships. 11.7 is ridiculous.

 

[State of the Vols]

Teams do not give out many, if any full scholarships.

They divide them up so that they can give out as many partial scholarships to players, so that they can attract as many players as possible.

You sir, are clearly no math major. It doesn't matter how they are awarded or how much they are worth,
11.7 = 11.7 .

 

[State of the Vols]

Tenn does not give need based money. Pell grant is the only money a kid can get and very very few baseball kids get that federal money. So it is incorrect to say tenn uses need based money.


Vandy uses need based money for recruits that don't get baseball money(11.7). I am very convinced that this money exceeds the money a normal student would receive which by NCAA rule should make it count toward the 11.7.

It has been stated here that the NCAA has approved everything they are doing but from I don't believe the books have completely been opened at vandy.

I find it hard to believe a middle income kid with average grades can go to vandy and pay a few thousand a semester without being a baseball recruit. If that same need based money isn't given to every student then it's countable money.

You make no sense whatsoever. Pell Grants are awarded to student athletes in the exact same manner than they awarded to any other student. The percentage of "baseball kids" that are eligible for Pell Grants is the same as the percentage of other students who are eligible for Pell Grants. You have not addressed the "lotto scholarship" money. Instead, you simply keep re-stating that you are "very convinced" that Vandy is not only cheating, but fooling the NCAA (and everyone else) as well. How 'bout we just quit making excuses for the Vols baseball program, face the facts and do what we can to move forward??? Spreading false blame helps no one, but makes us look foolish.

 

[BigOrange51]

It is who my nephew has been taking hitting lessons from for four years. He will be playing for Next Level next season. He is going to be Vandy-bound when his time comes.

Are you saying there is a connection between Larry Day and NLIB? Also the Knights are the team(s). How old is your nephew?

 

[Tux]

You sir, are clearly no math major. It doesn't matter how they are awarded or how much they are worth,
11.7 = 11.7 .

They are divided up in various ways. The UT scholarship is not worth $60K per year. The Vandy one is.

What is a UT scholly worth these days? Lets says it is $20K per year. That gives the UT coach $234K to divy up as he sees fit.

The Vandy coach has $702K to divy up as he sees fit.

 

[Tux]

Are you saying there is a connection between Larry Day and NLIB? Also the Knights are the team(s). How old is your nephew?

None, other than many of his pupils will be playing for NextLevel next year. My nephew is 13 plays for the Hendersonville Knights.

 

[Tux]

Nope. I think everyone in baseball around the midstate and really across the country has all kinds of respect for Tim Corbin, but there's no real affiliation between the Knights and Vanderbilt. Some of the best players in the midstate play for the Knights and some of the best players in the midstate also go to Vandy. Not much more than a coincidence. Again, I am not sure if he's referring to the Knights as that team, but he easily could be.

What has become of the Shoetiques? Why have they dropped off?

Last I heard, Mike Rippetoe was heading the organization. Pretty sharp baseball guy.

 

[BruinVol]

A kid with average grades couldn't get into Vandy without help from an athletic team. The same strings they are pulling with the admissions department may be similar to the strings they are able to pull in financial aid. If there are no hard income numbers that merit need based money, then they have a loophole. How could you regulate it? I doubt the baseball players who are getting need based money are massive outliers from the rest of the students, but they probably are the line in most cases. I think it all depends on how VU's financial aid is set up.

Regardless of all that, the solution is for the NCAA to give baseball more scholarships. 11.7 is ridiculous.

Regulating it is simple. All need based money should be monitored by a families EFC( federal number used for pell grant awards) numbers.

If student 1 that has an efc of 10k gets 45k in need based money then student 2 with the same federal EFC better get exactly the same award regardless if one is a baseball player.


This is where I believe there is an issue.

 

[State of the Vols]

They are divided up in various ways. The UT scholarship is not worth $60K per year. The Vandy one is.

What is a UT scholly worth these days? Lets says it is $20K per year. That gives the UT coach $234K to divy up as he sees fit.

The Vandy coach has $702K to divy up as he sees fit.

You're kidding, right???? He is not giving the kids the cash - the scholarship money goes straight back to the school, so it doesn't matter how much each scholarship is "worth" - each coach gets to "divy up" 11.7 scholarships, period.

I will use your numbers: Both Vandy and UT coaches have 11.7 grants to give. Let's say they each give 22 kids 1/2 scholarship each and the 23rd kid gets 70%. Each coach now has the same number of players enrolled. Using your numbers, and assuming none of these kids is eligible for other scholarship (ex. the lottery scholarship), each of the first 22 at UT will need to pay $10,000 in addition to his grant. Each of the Vandy kids will need to come up with another $30,000 in addition to his grant. Ignoring the difference in value of a degree from each school, I do not see how you cannot understand that this is a huge advantage for UT. When you add in the fact that some of the kids will also be eligible for Pell Grants and many of the in-state kids who choose UT will get their $10,000 paid through the lottery scholarship, the UT coach should be able to put an entire team together at far less out-of-pocket cost to his players and/or their parents.

Your premise that the Vandy scholarships are "worth more" and therefore create an advantage for Vandy is simply not true - they are still only worth 11.7 schollies at that school.

 

[BruinVol]

many of the in-state kids who choose UT will get their $10,000 paid through the lottery scholarship, .

You come across as a very condescending know it all with your post. If you are going to be that way perhaps you should be a little more factual with your post.

The lottery is worth 4k per year not 10k my friend.


I do agree in theory it should be easier for tenn than vandy financialy for recruits but need based money changes that. They are giving much higher % because many of their kids aren't on any baseball money. You would be surprised to know how little most of their guys are paying if my info is correct and I am very confident it is accurate.

 

[vol66]

BaseballAmerica.com: College: Recruiting: Recruiting Notebook: East Carolina, Florida State Among Other Top Classes

"They just have a unique sell: 'Come get a $250,000 degree, come play in the SEC, here's Pedro Alvarez and David Price,'" said one rival SEC recruiter. "Nashville's a great city, they have a great campus. They just have a really good package to sell right now, and they have an abnormal amount of institutional aid."

"They've got that incredible financial aid office—they're dealing with about 30 scholarships," says another SEC coach. "But how they beat the draft is they've got that incredible education. You have to really pay them to get them away from Vanderbilt. When you've got that kind of scholarship for that kind of education, it's hard to say no."

Just thought I'd toss this into the mix. Carry on.

 

[BruinVol]

BaseballAmerica.com: College: Recruiting: Recruiting Notebook: East Carolina, Florida State Among Other Top Classes






Just thought I'd toss this into the mix. Carry on.

Great find 66. More reasons you are my favorite poster

 

[vol66]

Baseball coaches struggle with scholarship limitations | Dallas-Fort Worth Sports News - Spor...

The scholarship crunch forces coaches such as Schlossnagle to explain to the parents of recruits why their son is being offered only a partial scholarship and why they'll still have to pay a sizeable portion. At a school such as TCU, with tuition, room and board around $46,000, a partial athletic scholarship still forces the parents to pay more than the parents of a walk-on player at Texas.

"The challenges that creates when you're trying to put together an Omaha team when we give a guy 50 percent, it costs him $22,000-$23,000 compared to if someone else gives him 50 percent, the denominator is so much smaller," He said.

For example, TCU outfielder Jerrick Suiter, who had a great year as a freshman, could have attended Vanderbilt, another private school that advanced to the CWS in 2011, and received the same amount of need-based and academic aid as he is getting at TCU with a substantial baseball scholarship.

But he would have been a "free player" at Vandy because he would have only cost the program at most, 25 percent of a full athletic scholarship, which is the minimum amount a student-athlete can be given. His academic aid at Vanderbilt would have equaled his athletic scholarship at TCU, allowing the Commodores coaches to use his baseball scholarship on another player. At TCU, the academic aid wasn't available, so Suiter, one of the top recruits in the nation a year ago, was given a substantial portion of a full athletic scholarship.

 

[BruinVol]

Baseball coaches struggle with scholarship limitations | Dallas-Fort Worth Sports News - Spor...

I wonder if the previous condescending poster will continue to claim none of this makes sense!! Lol

 

[vol66]

I wonder if the previous condescending poster will continue to claim none of this makes sense!! Lol

I was looking for some info regarding the NCAA looking into Vandy and stumbled onto these articles.

I don't understand the nuts and bolts of all this, but apparently coaches and not just SEC coaches think Vandy is offering a deal they cannot.

Incidentally according to Vandy's website, their endowment is reported to be 3.4 Billion.

ReVU: Quick Facts about Vanderbilt | Vanderbilt University | Nashville, Tennessee

 

[BigOrange51]

Wow. Great stuff 66. You're my hero.

 

[BruinVol]

I was looking for some info regarding the NCAA looking into Vandy and stumbled onto these articles.

I don't understand the nuts and bolts of all this, but apparently coaches and not just SEC coaches think Vandy is offering a deal they cannot.

Incidentally according to Vandy's website, their endowment is reported to be 3.4 Billion.

ReVU: Quick Facts about Vanderbilt | Vanderbilt University | Nashville, Tennessee

What I don't get is its easily monitored. Tax records are used for the EFC number and that should be used to keep vandy and all the other private schools in check. Financial aid should be equal for all students with the same financial status

 

[Tux]

Athletic scholarships are worth $10K more than a normal scholarship because of the training table.

 

[vol66]

What I don't get is its easily monitored. Tax records are used for the EFC number and that should be used to keep vandy and all the other private schools in check. Financial aid should be equal for all students with the same financial status

Like I said, I don't understand the nuts and bolts of how this all works, even in the most simplistic of ways.

It would appear, and I'm speculating here, that for the private schools with large endowments...there must be some loop hole they've found and the NCAA doesn't seem to think that it rises to the level of a "competitive advantage". I certainly don't KNOW anything about it.

The other thing I'm curious about would be other coaches. You don't hear Serrano, Holbrook, O'Sullivan, etc... talking about the issue.

 

[State of the Vols]

Like I said, I don't understand the nuts and bolts of how this all works, even in the most simplistic of ways.

It would appear, and I'm speculating here, that for the private schools with large endowments...there must be some loop hole they've found and the NCAA doesn't seem to think that it rises to the level of a "competitive advantage". I certainly don't KNOW anything about it.

The other thing I'm curious about would be other coaches. You don't hear Serrano, Holbrook, O'Sullivan, etc... talking about the issue.

Maybe it's because there simply is no huge advantage for the privates, regardless of the size of their endowments. I note here that of the 8 teams in Omaha this year, not a single one was a private school. Some that consider themselves "Vol fans" just seem to always want to find some reason why we cannot be the best at everything and search high and low for excuses when we aren't, even if half of said excuses are fabricated out of thin air.

I don't think that Seranno needs y'all to whine about Vandy - he is making close to $500,000 a year to make a difference - thus far, he has failed miserably. I do admire the fact that he has not fallen into the habit of whining about "unfair advantages" as have some on this board. I will cheer for the Vols whether they win or lose, but I will not let the outcome on the diamond cause me to bear false witness against other programs. In any event, I do not hear Mississippi State, LSU or even Cal State - Fullerton whining about Vandy's (or anyone else's) "unfair advantages - they are too busy going out and kicking butt. GBO

 

[vol66]

Maybe it's because there simply is no huge advantage for the privates, regardless of the size of their endowments. I note here that of the 8 teams in Omaha this year, not a single one was a private school. Some that consider themselves "Vol fans" just seem to always want to find some reason why we cannot be the best at everything and search high and low for excuses when we aren't, even if half of said excuses are fabricated out of thin air.

I don't think that Seranno needs y'all to whine about Vandy - he is making close to $500,000 a year to make a difference - thus far, he has failed miserably. I do admire the fact that he has not fallen into the habit of whining about "unfair advantages" as have some on this board. I will cheer for the Vols whether they win or lose, but I will not let the outcome on the diamond cause me to bear false witness against other programs. In any event, I do not hear Mississippi State, LSU or even Cal State - Fullerton whining about Vandy's (or anyone else's) "unfair advantages - they are too busy going out and kicking butt. GBO

I'm not whining about anything. Schlossnagle is a great coach and I quoted him.

I agree with you on one thing, I don't care how we start whipping Candy's arse as long as we do. That will take care of some of those mid state kids which is what this thread is s'posed to be about. We have a lot of Tennessee kids on the roster, I don't care what part of Tennessee they are from. CDS has recruiting connections on the west coast, I'm for him using them too, as he has been. BTW, Fullerton has some recruiting advantages of their own. I digress.

As far as I'm concerned, when Vol fans in the mid state start grumbling that we have too many out of state players and we should have more mid state kids we'll probably know we have arrived.

Here's the last thing, the Vandy baseball fanbase isn't getting any bigger, we have a lot of room for growth at UT in that regard. With that comes contributions and up graded facilities and that is precisely how we climb up the ladder. Winning takes care of lots of things.

 

[BruinVol]

If anyone here doesn't believe this isn't being complained about privately by bigtime coaches they are out of touch with reality.


Were there named coaches making those comments in the articles posted???

 

[thegreatwhite1]

Bruin and I have been on this Vandy thing for a while. Notre Dame, Rice, and Stanford have also utilized this loophole. Bruin is right, major college coaches are ALL disgruntled with the advantage that Vandy has over everyone else. A Vandy education is as good as it gets. If given the opportunity to attend Vanderbilt for cheaper than UT, I'm pretty sure that most everyone is going to Vandy... just like most of the premier baseball talent in the state.

 

[Tux]

We are still missing out on some damn good players, who end up attending Middle Tennessee, Georgia, and other schools.

 

[vol66]

I've read up on this issue, about as much as I care to. While Vandy and other private schools may have an advantage, it's not illegal. They offer every student, not just athletes the same opportunities based on need. Call it a loop hole or whatever, as has been stated, the NCAA has looked at the issue.

At the end of the day, those schools, and the Ivy League schools too, found a creative way to be competitive, a way to get athletes that ten years ago could not have afforded the out of pocket expense.

I see both sides of the issue, it just doesn't appear that change is coming anytime soon, if ever. If that is the case, what can we do? Can we be creative? Can we out work the others? Are we looking internationally? What do former Vols in MLB have to say, are we asking?