How significant is this in the QB competition?

[oregonvol]

I think Worley is one of the more underestimated players by folks here of any player in my 30 years or so of following the program. He has endured through the coaching turmoil, bad supporting casts, and near constant questions about his ability. He DOES have talent, is mentally tough, is apparently a guy the team trusts to lead, and is a very good "game manager" which is far more important than most think.

Your posts are generally pretty logical and fact-based, and I really like that about you.

But I have no idea what you are basing your observations above on. Worley has seen the field time and again throughout his previous 3 years and he's never shown anything to lead us to conclude he's got a significant level of talent, much less that he's one of the most underrated players in the past 30 years. And I see the "game manager" title thrown out alot here for quarterbacks who don't really show much talent running or throwing, but I wouldn't think you would use that euphemism. Do you really think a guy with so many 3 and outs can be called a good game manager?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree at this point. But I do plan on revisiting this post during the upcoming season.

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

Your posts are generally pretty logical and fact-based, and I really like that about you.

But I have no idea what you are basing your observations above on. Worley has seen the field time and again throughout his previous 3 years and he's never shown anything to lead us to conclude he's got a significant level of talent, much less that he's one of the most underrated players in the past 30 years. And I see the "game manager" title thrown out alot here for quarterbacks who don't really show much talent running or throwing, but I wouldn't think you would use that euphemism. Do you really think a guy with so many 3 and outs can be called a good game manager?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree at this point. But I do plan on revisiting this post during the upcoming season.

Worley did make some bad throws last year, BUT he also made some really good throws that they YOUNG receivers dropped. The timing of the routes were off as well. I don't think that you can attribute that all to Worley either.

Despite what some may say, Worley was the best QB that we had on the roster last year. He is the most experienced QB that we have this year. I am hoping with this being his second year in the system, the timing is there. The O&W game gave me hope.

 

[UT_Dutchman]

Woods, stop calling him Dobb Goblin......its stupid.

I second this. As soon as I read it, I quit reading.

 

[VOLywood]

Here's something I would like some comments on that I heard on a local radio station this morning. How about this take? The starting quarterback will depend to a great degree on the offensive line which is totally new. I think they even said that Tennessee was the only team in the country which lost its entire offensive and defensive line. If the line can pass protect, then you might favor Worley, the drop-back passer. If they have trouble stopping the pass rush, then you may well need the more mobile quarterback in Dobbs. Will that force the issue come game-time?

Worley is the starter either way...his scrambling and running ability is underrated.

 

[KBVol]

There...that'll stop him. :yess:

More likely to get Al Qaeda to stop killing those nasty little infidels IMO 😊👳

 

[PeytonBerry]

Worley has consistently gone out first with the 1's since Jones arrived. There have been no signs that anyone has come close to passing him as of yet. The only "proof" anyone ever offers is assumptions that fill the silence. When someone actually starts splitting the #1 reps equally with Worley then you can call it a competition.

I have a clue. In fact, I have ALL of the clues pointing to my opinion. It is those of you who ignore all the "clues" who are clueless.

Name one thing other than the refusal to name a #1 that points to anyone other than Worley being or having been #1. The ONLY time he has not been was one half against UF.

Any player can be passed... and not just when a coach refuses to name a starter or promotes competition in the way Jones does. Some starters are far less likely to be passed than others. Worley's job as QB is about as secure as Bray's was 3 years ago or as Ainge's was when there was a "competition" between him and Crompton. From the outside, Crompton even appeared to be winning.

I know you already made the point, but the fact that Jones started a different QB over a healthy Worley against FLA shows Worley hasn't been always the clear #1 since Jones arrived.

I think Worley can be a good QB for this team. I think he can be a good game manager and run the offense, but IMHO "what you see is what you get" with him. I think we have already seen Worley's ceiling, and admittedly that may be good enough to lead this year's team.

From my vantage point, the determining factor in this year's QB battle is Dobb's progression, because he hasn't hit his ceiling yet. I know I'm about to get blasted for even mentioning the orange and white game, but Dobbs (regardless of the competition) had the better throws. What I found most encouraging was how well he threw the deep ball and had touch on his passes (something we didn't see from him in the season). If that is any indication of the tragectory of his improvement, we may have quite a QB battle on our hands. If he is the same QB he was last season, Worley should clearly start.

I don't think we are that far off, we just have different opinions on what constitutes a fact.

 

[KBVol]

Worley did make some bad throws last year, BUT he also made some really good throws that they YOUNG receivers dropped. The timing of the routes were off as well. I don't think that you can attribute that all to Worley either.

Despite what some may say, Worley was the best QB that we had on the roster last year. He is the most experienced QB that we have this year. I am hoping with this being his second year in the system, the timing is there. The O&W game gave me hope.

This is a rational, sensible and accurate post about Worley. Why so many on here just wanna go all knee jerk and proclaim him horrible and not a sec QB and blah blah blah is beyond me. A like for your effort kind sir

 

[KBVol]

There...that'll stop him. :yess:

A second response to the same post cause I laughed again the second time I saw it.

 

[sjt18]

Your posts are generally pretty logical and fact-based, and I really like that about you.

But I have no idea what you are basing your observations above on. Worley has seen the field time and again throughout his previous 3 years and he's never shown anything to lead us to conclude he's got a significant level of talent, much less that he's one of the most underrated players in the past 30 years.

We'll just have to disagree I suppose. He stepped in as a Fr after Bray was injured. Dooley famously burned his RS much to the consternation of this board.

He struggled against USCe in a year when they had the best team in the history of the program then played very well vs MTSU and well against a very good Arkansas team.

The MTSU game was "instructive". Go back and take a look when you have time. He trusted D Rogers. Because of that, he fit balls into VERY small windows on a fairly consistent basis. The biggest reason for his hesitation and inaccuracy last fall was a lack of trust with the WR's. He simply COULD NOT throw to a spot and expect them to be there. He could not trust them to read D's. Once they started to turn the corner around mid-season, his play "improved"... iow's he continued to play about the same but they improved around him.

He played very little during Bray's senior year. Mop up only.

And I see the "game manager" title thrown out alot here for quarterbacks who don't really show much talent running or throwing,

Other than the fact that he can throw it and was effective running when he did...

but I wouldn't think you would use that euphemism. Do you really think a guy with so many 3 and outs can be called a good game manager?

With so little help from a bunch of WR's who for much of last season played poorly and had no idea what they were doing... yes. You have to go to places when he was well supported by the players around him. UGA, USCe, et al.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree at this point. But I do plan on revisiting this post during the upcoming season.

Good by me. If I am wrong then I am wrong. You've been here long enough to know I am one of the few folks here that will admit it.

 

[butchna]

Worley is the starter either way...his scrambling and running ability is underrated.

If he just THROWS BETTER I'm ok with him as our starter...maybe he was just thinking too much to adjust to the new system, and that affected his mechanics...but even his most ardent defenders have to admit that he has to make all the throws with touch or move on.

 

[sigchig]

Woods, stop calling him Dobb Goblin......its stupid.

I second this. As soon as I read it, I quit reading.

And you think he cares about your opinions why? Have you seen his posts? He is perfectly happy in his imaginationland and I'm happy he's happy. As long as he's a Vol Fan, let him be a strange one. I think he's one of the more original posters on this board and isn't prone to name-calling and belittling like some people.... :whistling:

 

[sjt18]

I know you already made the point, but the fact that Jones started a different QB over a healthy Worley against FLA shows Worley hasn't been always the clear #1 since Jones arrived.

How did that work out?

I do not doubt that Jones wanted and wants more from his QB position whether it is Worley, Dobbs, or someone else. I have said many times that I respect Jones for taking a shot like that even though it turned out to be a very bad decision. But if you insist on calling it a real competition... you still cannot call it a really close competition. If Dobbs starts getting equal reps with the ones and comes out half the time first with the 1's this fall... then we can talk about a real competition. Until then, it is Worley with everyone else chasing... just as it has been.

I don't think we are that far off, we just have different opinions on what constitutes a fact.

Not much. It is a fact that except for one half... and I suppose one week before that half... Worley has been first with the 1's. Now it is an "opinion" that that means he's been the effective number 1 during that time... but it is a pretty doggone logical opinion that doesn't have a logical replacement.

 

[oregonvol]

Worley did make some bad throws last year, BUT he also made some really good throws that they YOUNG receivers dropped. The timing of the routes were off as well. I don't think that you can attribute that all to Worley either.

Despite what some may say, Worley was the best QB that we had on the roster last year. He is the most experienced QB that we have this year. I am hoping with this being his second year in the system, the timing is there. The O&W game gave me hope.

The thing is, here (more than anywhere else on earth) there is this sudden leap people make between excuses and conclusions.

That young receivers dropped passes is true. That young receivers ran bad routes is possibly true too. It's a stretch to use this as an excuse for all the passes in the dirt, all the 3-and-outs, all the interceptions, the last-in-the-SEC yards per completion and completion percentage, etc. It seems rather like sophistry to take some solid excuses and turn them into a blanket excuse for all that was wrong (though VN makes a habit out of it). But it seems absolutely insane to make another, much bigger leap, from blanket excuse to wildly positive conclusion (i.e. that the guy who played poorly and has some excuses is actually very good at what he does and is in fact one of the most underrated players in program history).

I realize it doesn't seem that significant to most posters, because, let's face it, these leaps of illogic happen here regularly, but I rarely see it from sjt (well, not since his days defending Dooley at least).

 

[sjt18]

If he just THROWS BETTER I'm ok with him as our starter...maybe he was just thinking too much to adjust to the new system, and that affected his mechanics...but even his most ardent defenders have to admit that he has to make all the throws with touch or move on.

Agree. He got better as the WR's developed last fall so I anticipate him being much better still due to what he will have to work with this fall.

But if he truly cannot make the throws and get the playmakers in a position to make plays... then he has to be replaced.

 

[butchna]

A second response to the same post cause I laughed again the second time I saw it.

Hey buddy don't sell yourself short on that "infidel" line. :lol:

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

If he just THROWS BETTER I'm ok with him as our starter...maybe he was just thinking too much to adjust to the new system, and that affected his mechanics...but even his most ardent defenders have to admit that he has to make all the throws with touch or move on.

He did hold on to the ball too long at times. As someone stated, it was just him not trusting his receivers. My biggest complaint was him not running when he had an open lane. But as they say, hindsight is always 20/20. I am glad that he did not run as much, because we saw what happened when he went down with an injury. DD left us in a very bad place, both literally and figuratively in regards to talent.

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

The thing is, here (more than anywhere else on earth) there is this sudden leap people make between excuses and conclusions.

That young receivers dropped passes is true. That young receivers ran bad routes is possibly true too. It's a stretch to use this as an excuse for all the passes in the dirt, all the 3-and-outs, all the interceptions, the last-in-the-SEC yards per completion and completion percentage, etc. It seems rather like sophistry to take some solid excuses and turn them into a blanket excuse for all that was wrong (though VN makes a habit out of it). But it seems absolutely insane to make another, much bigger leap, from blanket excuse to wildly positive conclusion (i.e. that the guy who played poorly and has some excuses is actually very good at what he does and is in fact one of the most underrated players in program history).

I realize it doesn't seem that significant to most posters, because, let's face it, these leaps of illogic happen here regularly, but I rarely see it from sjt (well, not since his days defending Dooley at least).

How do you know that the balls in the dirt were not due to the receivers running the wrong route? These were very inexperienced receivers that we are talking about.

 

[sjt18]

The thing is, here (more than anywhere else on earth) there is this sudden leap people make between excuses and conclusions.

That young receivers dropped passes is true. That young receivers ran bad routes is possibly true too. It's a stretch to use this as an excuse for all the passes in the dirt, all the 3-and-outs, all the interceptions, the last-in-the-SEC yards per completion and completion percentage, etc. It seems rather like sophistry to take some solid excuses and turn them into a blanket excuse for all that was wrong (though VN makes a habit out of it). But it seems absolutely insane to make another, much bigger leap, from blanket excuse to wildly positive conclusion (i.e. that the guy who played poorly and has some excuses is actually very good at what he does and is in fact one of the most underrated players in program history).

I realize it doesn't seem that significant to most posters, because, let's face it, these leaps of illogic happen here regularly, but I rarely see it from sjt (well, not since his days defending Dooley at least).

You point to things not established as facts... to accuse those you think jump from excuses to conclusions?

There is no question that the WR's ran routes poorly and ran the wrong routes. There is also no doubt that when a QB lacks confidence he hesitates or throws the ball away from trouble. QB's are taught to have a clock in their head. You have to throw it and you have to throw it to the safest place you can.

Worley had only 10 TD's in 8 games which is actually a bigger deal than most of what is cited here. He had 8 INT's. Five of those INT's came against USA when he played horribly along with pretty much all of the WR's. Two more came against UF when he came in slinging the ball everywhere in a desperate attempt to overcome the fact that they spotted UF the first half with Peterman. UT's O was not ready for that kind of comeback effort against that kind of D. Two more came against Bama playing with a severely injured hand.

Are those excuses? I don't think so. Do they prove he's a good QB? No. They just leave the issue open.

 

[sjt18]

How do you know that the balls in the dirt were not due to the receivers running the wrong route? These were very inexperienced receivers that we are talking about.

I actually enjoy OV and agree with him often. But IMO he is one of those who just writes Worley off without going below the superficial level. The guy has had anything but a primrose path since signing with UT.

All of it wasn't on the WR's. But most of it more than likely was. Jones alluded to that notion several times during the season. We WILL get an answer this fall. WR play should be much improved.

 

[omghulkhands]

I know you already made the point, but the fact that Jones started a different QB over a healthy Worley against FLA shows Worley hasn't been always the clear #1 since Jones arrived.

I think Worley can be a good QB for this team. I think he can be a good game manager and run the offense, but IMHO "what you see is what you get" with him. I think we have already seen Worley's ceiling, and admittedly that may be good enough to lead this year's team.

From my vantage point, the determining factor in this year's QB battle is Dobb's progression, because he hasn't hit his ceiling yet. I know I'm about to get blasted for even mentioning the orange and white game, but Dobbs (regardless of the competition) had the better throws. What I found most encouraging was how well he threw the deep ball and had touch on his passes (something we didn't see from him in the season). If that is any indication of the tragectory of his improvement, we may have quite a QB battle on our hands. If he is the same QB he was last season, Worley should clearly start.

I don't think we are that far off, we just have different opinions on what constitutes a fact.

I went around and around with this guy last year over Worley and Dobbs. He seems to have come around on Dobbs a bit, but he drove me nuts being pessimistic about him last year. It wouldn't have bothered me because Dobbs didn't look good, couldn't argue that, but he would quantify by saying things like "Worley is a very good QB" or "Worley played well his freshman year" which drove me up a wall.

He would also blame drops on a lot of Worley's ineptitude, not give Dobbs the same luxury, and never acknowledge how inaccurate Worley is quite often (so many bounce passes).

Even despite all this I love the character Worley has and think he does his best, but is just mediocre at the very best. I am of the opinion the guy has taken a liking to Worley for whatever reason and has trouble being objective about him and he will not come off that opinion no matter how logical the argument so I gave up.

 

[sjt18]

All of this aside. I DO think Dobbs looks like a legit second option now. If Worley stumbles... I'm pretty excited to see what Dobbs can do now. I too liked the progress in his arm and passing ability shown in the spring game. Most of the balls he threw were well placed regardless of who had been defending.

 

[PeytonBerry]

How did that work out?

I do not doubt that Jones wanted and wants more from his QB position whether it is Worley, Dobbs, or someone else. I have said many times that I respect Jones for taking a shot like that even though it turned out to be a very bad decision. But if you insist on calling it a real competition... you still cannot call it a really close competition. If Dobbs starts getting equal reps with the ones and comes out half the time first with the 1's this fall... then we can talk about a real competition. Until then, it is Worley with everyone else chasing... just as it has been.



Not much. It is a fact that except for one half... and I suppose one week before that half... Worley has been first with the 1's. Now it is an "opinion" that that means he's been the effective number 1 during that time... but it is a pretty doggone logical opinion that doesn't have a logical replacement.

First of all, you're right, the FLA move didn't work out well (I never claimed that it did), but I used that fact to defend my position that Worley hasn't always been the clear #1.

On the other point, originally one poster wrote, "There is no competition. Worley is your starter."

Another poster replied, "There's absolutely no way that you could reasonably state this as a fact."

To which you replied, "Right now? Yes you can."

I simply disagree that the original statement is a fact, because Dobb's may have passed Worley by the Utah State game.

I don't disagree with the fact that Worley was the #1 QB last season (besides FLA) or that he has taken the majority of #1 snaps in the Spring (agreed facts). I just think Dobb's potential is greater than the known commodity we have in Worley, and it may be that he has reached that potential in time to pass Worley and start against Utah State (opinion). Consequently, I disagree with your calling the original statement a fact, when I believe it to be an observation.

 

[sjt18]

I went around and around with this guy last year over Worley and Dobbs. He seems to have come around on Dobbs a bit, but he drove me nuts being pessimistic about him last year. It wouldn't have bothered me because Dobbs didn't look good, couldn't argue that, but he would quantify by saying things like "Worley is a very good QB" or "Worley played well his freshman year" which drove me up a wall.

Yep. Because you couldn't counter the arguments. I have always liked Dobbs... and Ferguson for that matter. Dobbs didn't play well. He wasn't prepared well IMO by the OC. He flat out wasn't ready to go. But for development into a good QB... I'll take a kid that can run, has a great attitude, has a photographic memory, and possesses a nice throwing motion (with the ability to develop physical strength)... any time.

He would also blame drops on a lot of Worley's ineptitude, not give Dobbs the same luxury, and never acknowledge how inaccurate Worley is quite often (so many bounce passes).

Not true... but whatever.

Even despite all this I love the character Worley has and think he does his best, but is just mediocre at the very best. I am of the opinion the guy has taken a liking to Worley for whatever reason and has trouble being objective about him and he will not come off that opinion no matter how logical the argument so I gave up.

I have said numerous times that I like all 4 (now 3). I have said numerous times that I like Dobbs' game the best of the group. I end up defending Worley because of non-sense like what you posted in bold above. It MIGHT be true... but to say that the guy has had a fair shot at proving it one way or the other is ridiculous.

 

[PeytonBerry]

All of this aside. I DO think Dobbs looks like a legit second option now. If Worley stumbles... I'm pretty excited to see what Dobbs can do now. I too liked the progress in his arm and passing ability shown in the spring game. Most of the balls he threw were well placed regardless of who had been defending.

Thanks for the olive branch. We may disagree on a few points, but we're both All Vol, and will support whoever is slinging the pigskin. I think both guys are high character young men that can lead us to a good season. Sometimes, it's just nice to talk some football in May.

 

[oregonvol]

You point to things not established as facts... to accuse those you think jump from excuses to conclusions?

There is no question that the WR's ran routes poorly and ran the wrong routes. There is also no doubt that when a QB lacks confidence he hesitates or throws the ball away from trouble. QB's are taught to have a clock in their head. You have to throw it and you have to throw it to the safest place you can.

Worley had only 10 TD's in 8 games which is actually a bigger deal than most of what is cited here. He had 8 INT's. Five of those INT's came against USA when he played horribly along with pretty much all of the WR's. Two more came against UF when he came in slinging the ball everywhere in a desperate attempt to overcome the fact that they spotted UF the first half with Peterman. UT's O was not ready for that kind of comeback effort against that kind of D. Two more came against Bama playing with a severely injured hand.

Are those excuses? I don't think so. Do they prove he's a good QB? No. They just leave the issue open.

I stated plenty of facts. If you don't choose to see them, that's hardly my problem. Fact: Even in his "best" games last year, Worley's yards per completion and completion percentage would rank at the bottom of SEC starting QBs. Fact: Even in what most point to as his best game last year (and evidence of his ability as a game manager?), vs South Carolina, 5 of his last 8 drives were 3-and-outs and his completion percentage was below 50% for the 2nd half. Fact: You conveniently neglected to mention that 3 of those 10 touchdowns you cited came against Austin Peay. Against FBS competition, Worley had 7 touchdowns and 8 interceptions last year. Throughout Worley's career here, he's never had a game (against FBS competition) where he threw for more than 1 touchdown, where he ended up throwing for more touchdowns than interceptions. FACT: He didn't throw 5 interceptions against South Alabama. But he did throw 3 (that was also the only FBS opponent he ever threw more than 1 touchdown against). He also threw as many interceptions as touchdowns against Western Kentucky. In his career, against FBS level opponents, he has 8 touchdowns and 15 interceptions.

But, I'm sure it's all on the receivers and the system and his injured hand and none of it could be that he just isn't very good.