I have a question for some of the Political forum regulars....

[lumberjack4]

I see some of you that get into a discussion about faith/religion, and yet, you don't have a stake in either. How can you even argue for or against something you don't believe in yourself?? What does it matter to you, other to just have an opinion or try to question another's faith/religion??

If you're secure in your faith what does it matter what others think of it? Saying that since someone doesn't believe in God they can't discuss religion, is like saying since someone doesn't believe in Global Warming they can't argue against it. There's a lot of things I don't believe in, and it doesn't stop me from arguing against them. If a Christian is so weak in their faith that a message board converts them away from Christianity, I would say they were a really crappy Christian to begin with.

 

[DC Vol]

This is false.

It is true in the context of God vs. Religion. Many were Deists (or silent atheists) that rejected established, organized religion in favor of having an independent view of God.

Ben Franklin was a radical that calmed down in his later years but his connection to established religion is thought to have been shaky at best.

 

[tigervol9802]

Post of the thread so far.

I grew up very religious and now I am against organized religion. There are a multitude of reasons as many can understand, but religion still affects me in different ways as it affects most everyone despite the most earnest efforts to keep it from.

PJ makes a good point when referring to the founding fathers and their desire to keep religion out of government. I hear all the time the argument that the US was founded upon Christianity which could not be further from the truth. The architects of the nation were largely anti-religion. The anti-religious sentiment was even more prevalent in those times than in these.

:ermm:

Not so sure about that......

 

[utvolpj]

Ben Franklin was a radical that calmed down in his later years but his connection to established religion is thought to have been shaky at best.

I'm actually reading his biography right now. He had some interesting views on it

 

[Sabanocchio]

This is false.

Really?

The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.".

-George Washington

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.

-George Washington

"The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious.... One only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

Thomas Jefferson

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out: This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

John Adams


"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches"

Benjamin Franklin


"As to Jesus of Nazareth... I have found some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I think it needless to busy myself with now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."

Benjamin Franklin


"The United States of America is in no sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams


"Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.... perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind... a mere contrivance for the clergy to filch wealth and power to themselves."

Thomas Jefferson


"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprises."

James Madison


"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief... it produces only atheists and fanatics."

Thomas Paine


But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.

-John Adams

I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

-Susan B. Anthony



Shall I go on? I could do this all day.

 

[DC Vol]

This ought to get interesting.

 

[tigervol9802]

Really?

The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.".

-George Washington

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.

-George Washington

"The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious.... One only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

Thomas Jefferson

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out: This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

John Adams


"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches"

Benjamin Franklin


"As to Jesus of Nazareth... I have found some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I think it needless to busy myself with now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."

Benjamin Franklin


"The United States of America is in no sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams


"Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.... perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind... a mere contrivance for the clergy to filch wealth and power to themselves."

Thomas Jefferson


"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprises."

James Madison


"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief... it produces only atheists and fanatics."

Thomas Paine


But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.

-John Adams

I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

-Susan B. Anthony



Shall I go on? I could do this all day.

You really might want to research the letters between John Adams and John Quincy Adams before you group him into the anti-Christian crowd....

And I'd look into GW a little more as well.

Not wanting a state run church and being anti-Christian are two entirely different things.

 

[droski]

agreed adams was bordering on religious wackjob (even for those days)

 

[Sabanocchio]

I'm not talking about Anti-christian. I'm talking about a desire to keep organized religion completely out of government.

My point was that this country was not founded on christianity as claimed by many christians, but founded with the desire to keep christianity completely out of the equation.

 

[utvolpj]

I'm not talking about Anti-christian. I'm talking about a desire to keep organized religion completely out of government.

I got it now. Went back and re-read your statement because it was a bit confusing at first glance but makes sense.

 

[golfballs]

yeah not sure I'm on board with that. It's fair to say a good amount weren't Christian but most held some religious beliefs (or hid their atheism for fear of what people would say)

They may not have been the pilgrims that many people would like to think, but I don't think they were "anti-religion" by any stretch.

 

[golfballs]

I'm not talking about Anti-christian. I'm talking about a desire to keep organized religion completely out of government.

My point was that this country was not founded on christianity as claimed by many christians, but founded with the desire to keep christianity completely out of the equation.

Ok, well that is not "anti-religion".

 

[utvolpj]

They may not have been the pilgrims that many people would like to think, but I don't think they were "anti-religion" by any stretch.

only when it came to the gov't

 

[tigervol9802]

I'm not talking about Anti-christian. I'm talking about a desire to keep organized religion completely out of government.

My point was that this country was not founded on christianity as claimed by many christians, but founded with the desire to keep christianity completely out of the equation.

That makes much more sense. Christianity was "influential" in the foundation of America, but it wasn't the basis on which it was founded.

 

[Sabanocchio]

only when it came to the gov't

This is my point.

It was an attempt to agree with your statement that many think the nation should go back to a state that it was never in -- that being a foundation built upon christianity.

As you say, once you begin alienating any specific group based upon creed, you are going down a road you may not like.

 

[tvolsfan]

Really?

The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.".

-George Washington

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.

-George Washington

"The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious.... One only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

Thomas Jefferson

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out: This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

John Adams


"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches"

Benjamin Franklin


"As to Jesus of Nazareth... I have found some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I think it needless to busy myself with now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."

Benjamin Franklin


"The United States of America is in no sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams


"Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.... perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind... a mere contrivance for the clergy to filch wealth and power to themselves."

Thomas Jefferson


"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprises."

James Madison


"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief... it produces only atheists and fanatics."

Thomas Paine


But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.

-John Adams

I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

-Susan B. Anthony



Shall I go on? I could do this all day.

Not to be an ***, but why the hell did you throw Susan B. Anthony in there?

 

[DC Vol]

Not to be an ***, but why the hell did you throw Susan B. Anthony in there?

Well, technically, saban originally said "architects of this nation" to which golfballs03 said "This is false.".

I would call Susan B. Anthony an architect of this nation as it grew and changed.

 

[golfballs]

Really?

The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.".

-George Washington

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.

-George Washington

"The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious.... One only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

Thomas Jefferson

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out: This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

John Adams


"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches"

Benjamin Franklin


"As to Jesus of Nazareth... I have found some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I think it needless to busy myself with now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."

Benjamin Franklin


"The United States of America is in no sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams


"Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.... perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind... a mere contrivance for the clergy to filch wealth and power to themselves."

Thomas Jefferson


"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprises."

James Madison


"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief... it produces only atheists and fanatics."

Thomas Paine


But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.

-John Adams

I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

-Susan B. Anthony



Shall I go on? I could do this all day.

BTW, those quotes by Thomas Jefferson are either false, or have been butchered, or taken out of context.

It appears you just copy and pasted a quote page from some random athiest's blog or something.

It would be more useful if you cited where these people actually made these comments.

 

[utvolpj]

BTW, those quotes by Thomas Jefferson are either false, or have been butchered, or taken out of context.

It appears you just copy and pasted a quote page from some random athiest's blog or something.

It would be more useful if you cited where these people actually made these comments.

TJ was not exactly a religious fanatic like most of his day

 

[Oldvol75]

“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.”

George Washington

“Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

George Washington

“The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained”

George Wasington

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just."

Thomas Jefferson

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice can not sleep forever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference!"
— Thomas Jefferson (Notes on the State of Virginia)

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798 John Adams

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787] Benjamin Franklin

James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)

I could also go on.......

 

[tigervol9802]

TJ was not exactly a religious fanatic like most of his day

Jefferson was at best agnostic, but he wasn't "death to all Christians" either as many who use him as a basis for separation of chruch and state try to make him appear to be.

 

[gsvol]

No, I said I have never known, not that there hasn't been almost 800 years or more ago, anyone who has killed in the name of Jesus Christ. Just want to make sure that's plain. Yet, there was a Christian lady over in Afghanistan from Knoxville that got killed because they were trying to help the villagers in that area. So, there is a BIG fundamental difference in what today's Christians look like versus the Crusaders of the times of wars with Christianity and Islam.

Try reading post #s 276 and 278 in this thread.

 

[hndog609]

This may be something of an aside from the main theme but I think a lot of Christian angst of late is based on a perceived bias against them in direct comparison to other religions, Islam in particular.

That Christianity is berated in the mainstream is so utterly ubiquitous to try denying it is laughable. There is, for all intents and purposes, no real threshold for "offending" Christians. Do not confuse this with things that do offend Christians, I'm talking about the threshold where the media/government will clearly put the brakes on for the specific purpose of protecting Christian sensibilities. For instance, can you imagine "Piss Muhammad" being displayed as an award winning piece of art like "Piss Christ" was? (Nevermind it being partially funded by the National Endowment for the Arts...which means tax dollars) In truth, there appears to be an acknowledged "fear of the consequences" of depicting Muhammad (or anything overtly Muslim) in contrast to anything close to the manner in which Christ or Christians may be portrayed.

It is certainly a separate argument than "religion in government" but it's something I've noticed.

 

[gsvol]

Jefferson was at best agnostic, but he wasn't "death to all Christians" either as many who use him as a basis for separation of chruch and state try to make him appear to be.

That simply is untrue.

In a letter to a friend he explained that he definately believed in Jesus Christ.

Jefferson never once attempted to demean the Gospel or the doctrine of Jesus Christ although he did malign some Christian leaders and/or ministers for using Christ's doctrine for selfish purposes.

 

[golfballs]

That simply is untrue.

In a letter to a friend he explained that he definately believed in Jesus Christ.

Jefferson never once attempted to demean the Gospel or the doctrine of Jesus Christ although he did malign some Christian leaders and/or ministers for using Christ's doctrine for selfish purposes.

He believed in Jesus, but not in his divinity. He also had issues with people blindly following a faith. That's where his quotes about questioning God come from. It doesn't mean that he didn't believe there was a God, just that the God he believes in must respect more the homage of reason not blind faith.