I like what this man stands for

My second problem with it is that he is touting himself as a military man and Palin and even some of you are calling him a war hero.

From what I am reading about the situation, he is not. He is a criminal. It is an insult to those who have served honorably for this man and his supporters to latch onto some romanticized image of this guy just doing "what was right."

By definition, it wasn't. And as the military command said of this case, what he did undermines authority and the efforts of the military over there to prevail.

The man has a 20 year record in the military with one blip where he disobeyed orders to protect his troops. Labeling him a criminal, a disgrace and/or a menace is absolutely disproportionate to the situation. His punishment shows this.

Unlike you I won't speak to what other members of the military likely think of him but I'm guessing you are wrong about that too.

Still waiting for your denouncement of Sestak.
 
From what I am reading about the situation, he is not. He is a criminal. It is an insult to those who have served honorably for this man and his supporters to latch onto some romanticized image of this guy just doing "what was right."

the comments I'm reading from members on here who have served honorably don't sound like they're insulted. However I'm sure you asked Pvt. Joe Sixpack before responding
 
Just because I criticize the guy for actively defying orders doesn't mean I agree with the orders. I think there is a very legitimate debate to be had as to how far soldiers can go in certain situations.

Garbage. If you really felt this way then to you the guy isn't automatically an insulting, disgusting disgrace before you even knew most of the facts about the situation.
 
I love how anything that is more aggressive in the battle field is in your book automatically the right thing to do whereas anything that is more passive is automatically wrong.

Your moral compass has no place in the military.

Neither did his. That's the point. And ergo it is flagrantly outrageous of him to tout himself as having served honorably in order to win a seat in Congress.






(bham, regarding Sestak, I've only caught small bits and pieces of it. I am aware of the controversy but don't know enough about it to have an opinion, yet. It does seem like he's clammed up, though. One wonders if he didn't stray a little too far from the truth in his initial comments because he enjoyed the "He's his own man" spotlight. Just has that feel to it right now. More to come, I'm sure.)
 
I am aware of the controversy but don't know enough about it to have an opinion, yet.

haven't formed an opinion on him yet you were able to call West a menace based on info that you gathered on him (like this little nugget)

It certainly does not prevent me from appreciating the fact that the guy was court martialed for having taken such extreme actions, was convicted, and then resigned from the military under the cloud of what he had done.

-- then how do you explain to me how it is that he was court martialed and found guilty by the military?
 
(bham, regarding Sestak, I've only caught small bits and pieces of it. I am aware of the controversy but don't know enough about it to have an opinion, yet. It does seem like he's clammed up, though. One wonders if he didn't stray a little too far from the truth in his initial comments because he enjoyed the "He's his own man" spotlight. Just has that feel to it right now. More to come, I'm sure.)

Clearly you were super well-informed on this incident. You know, what with him being court martialed and all.
 
(bham, regarding Sestak, I've only caught small bits and pieces of it. I am aware of the controversy but don't know enough about it to have an opinion, yet. It does seem like he's clammed up, though. One wonders if he didn't stray a little too far from the truth in his initial comments because he enjoyed the "He's his own man" spotlight. Just has that feel to it right now. More to come, I'm sure.)

I'm not talking about the "job offer". I'm talking about him being "relieved of his duty" while a military officer for creating a "poor command climate".

On your rules, being relieved of duty negates a military career and should merit derision from the rest of the military. Most importantly, one shouldn't mention their military service if "relieved of duty". Sestak received the same punishment as West.
 
Boston Globe Article, for some detail.

An American officer has been stripped of his command after pleading guilty to assaulting an Iraqi detainee during interrogation, the military announced yesterday. A disciplinary proceeding found that the actions by Lieutenant Colonel Allen West were serious enough to "merit a court-martial." But the military said in a statement that mitigating circumstances -- specifically, the "stressful environment" of combat -- and West's distinguished service record prompted the Army to instead relieve West of his command, fine him $5,000, and order him back to the United States, where he will be allowed to retire.

"Frustration and anger overcame his professional ethics and personal values, and he performed what he knew to be illegal and immoral acts," said the statement issued by the Army's Fourth Infantry Division.

During a closed-door tribunal Friday in the town of Tikrit, West was found guilty of three counts of aggravated assault and a single count of communicating a threat. The ruling was issued after West pleaded guilty to misconduct.

He is the most senior officer to receive disciplinary action since the start of the war. West served as a battalion commander with the Fourth Infantry Division and was in charge of about 800 soldiers operating in one of the most dangerous regions in Iraq. For the past few months, he has been confined to the division's base in Tikrit.

The military said that during an interrogation of an Iraqi police officer Aug. 20 near the village of Taji, north of Baghdad, West fired his pistol near the head of the prisoner, threatened to kill him, and allowed his troops to beat the man. The detainee, Yahya Jhodri Hamoodi, was suspected of having knowledge of a planned attack on US troops in the Sunni Triangle, the region north and west of Baghdad that has been a hotbed of anti-US resistance. Scores of soldiers have been killed or wounded in bomb, rocket, and small-arms ambushes in the area.

West acknowledged last month before a military tribunal that his actions were wrong, but said that at the time of the incident he believed he was protecting the lives of his troops. "If it's about the lives of my men and their safety, I'd go through hell with a gasoline can," West said during the earlier proceeding.

The disciplinary action against West was ordered by General Raymond Odierno, commander of the Fourth Infantry Division.
The military said that through his actions against the detainee, West "disobeyed laws, ignored orders ... and mortgaged future discipline in his unit. Without discipline, there is no trust, no cohesion, and no higher purpose for which we fight."

But the military also stated, "while his crimes merit a court-martial, mitigating factors were considered, including the stressful environment ... and Lieutenant Colonel West's record as an officer and commander."
Like I said, he's a menace. Take a look at what his commanding officer had to say.

If this were a Democrat, you guys would be outraged that he had any backing at all. That Palin and the TPers support him is no surprise, with their "take matters into our own hands and the law be damned" mentality.

Disgusting.

No. The only thing disgusting here is you! Were you old enough I bet you would have been at the SF airport spitting on soldiers returning from Viet Nam.
 
Wow, some of you guys have a real ability to see things in absolute black and white. Unfortunately, reality is rarely that well delimited. :\

absolute black and white is the lone reason that LTC West was relieved of his command and forced to retire. GEN Odierno paid lip service to the rule, but undoubtedly hated having to relieve a combat commander who was bent on force protection. In total war, which we have the luxury of avoiding because of our current military might relative to the rest of the world, we would be promoting LTC West. Since we're in no danger of losing or our sovereignty isn't at risk, we can be political about crap like this.

You have some idea of the "cut" between making LTC and getting a battalion command. LG has no idea. This guy was clearly a solid soldier. Painting him as a whackjob, loose cannon and menace to society is utter trash. Selection to LTC level command is telling. The vast majority of those are slated for full bull and that's the lone route to BG.
 
absolute black and white is the lone reason that LTC West was relieved of his command and forced to retire. GEN Odierno paid lip service to the rule, but undoubtedly hated having to relieve a combat commander who was bent on force protection. In total war, which we have the luxury of avoiding because of our current military might relative to the rest of the world, we would be promoting LTC West. Since we're in no danger of losing or our sovereignty isn't at risk, we can be political about crap like this.

You have some idea of the "cut" between making LTC and getting a battalion command. LG has no idea. This guy was clearly a solid soldier. Painting him as a whackjob, loose cannon and menace to society is utter trash. Selection to LTC level command is telling. The vast majority of those are slated for full bull and that's the lone route to BG.

Good post.
 
I'm not talking about the "job offer". I'm talking about him being "relieved of his duty" while a military officer for creating a "poor command climate".

On your rules, being relieved of duty negates a military career and should merit derision from the rest of the military. Most importantly, one shouldn't mention their military service if "relieved of duty". Sestak received the same punishment as West.


Oh, was not even aware.

Mostly because I haven't gotten the impression that he is running ads with him in uniform or touting himself as a war hero. I could be wrong aobut that, however.

Has Palin and the TP endorsed him, too?
 
Oh, was not even aware.

Mostly because I haven't gotten the impression that he is running ads with him in uniform or touting himself as a war hero. I could be wrong aobut that, however.

Has Palin and the TP endorsed him, too?

Yes! Those racist term spewing, hating all things not white anglo-saxon, teapartiers, have endorsed him

Go figure.

Token, i guess!!
 
absolute black and white is the lone reason that LTC West was relieved of his command and forced to retire. GEN Odierno paid lip service to the rule, but undoubtedly hated having to relieve a combat commander who was bent on force protection. In total war, which we have the luxury of avoiding because of our current military might relative to the rest of the world, we would be promoting LTC West. Since we're in no danger of losing or our sovereignty isn't at risk, we can be political about crap like this.

You have some idea of the "cut" between making LTC and getting a battalion command. LG has no idea. This guy was clearly a solid soldier. Painting him as a whackjob, loose cannon and menace to society is utter trash. Selection to LTC level command is telling. The vast majority of those are slated for full bull and that's the lone route to BG.


You sound as though you think the command are basically just scapegoating middle management at every turn.

I'd have more sympathy if it were an incident of firing on people they mistakenly thought were armed and about to fire on them. I'd be understanding if they accidentally broke the guy's leg taking him in out of a vehicle and it turned out they just had the wrong guy.

But telling him you are going to shoot him becasuse you think he might know of future attacks (not one going on at the moment), firing a gun next to his head to show him you mean business, and having your guys beat him just seems to me to be West deciding for himself what needs to be done, orders to the contrary be damned.

He got angry at the situation of the bombings, which is totally understandable. But his reaction was simply not what the military had chosen to tolerate.
 
Oh, was not even aware.

Mostly because I haven't gotten the impression that he is running ads with him in uniform or touting himself as a war hero. I could be wrong aobut that, however.

Has Palin and the TP endorsed him, too?

One served with honor for 20 years and crossed a line while trying to protect the lives of those he lead.

The other was apparently so bad as a leader the people under him suffered leading to his release.
 
And the other 10% are the Democrat military leaders that truefan likes to brag about.

I love the ignorance from the right

I didn't brag about anything. One of the wingers on the board claimed there are no democrats who have notable military careers. I simply pointed out he was uninformed.
 
Oh, was not even aware.

Mostly because I haven't gotten the impression that he is running ads with him in uniform or touting himself as a war hero. I could be wrong aobut that, however.

Has Palin and the TP endorsed him, too?

Now that you know do you consider him to be a disgrace? A menace. Basically he was removed for not doing his job well - should that type of person be a senator?
 
hate to rip off emanivol but:

Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lawgator? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.
You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use then as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

LOL....using movie lines trying to make a point???

I see you conveniently didn't go any further with it as we all know the character you've quoted was relieved of his duties
 
LOL....using movie lines trying to make a point???

I see you conveniently didn't go any further with it as we all know the character you've quoted was relieved of his duties

my gut tells me this was a good way to make my point
 
You sound as though you think the command are basically just scapegoating middle management at every turn.

no I don't. Not in the least. I think GEN Odierno said what he said and did what he did because he had to. Given a choice, he'll take warriors when it's time to fight.

I'd have more sympathy if it were an incident of firing on people they mistakenly thought were armed and about to fire on them. I'd be understanding if they accidentally broke the guy's leg taking him in out of a vehicle and it turned out they just had the wrong guy.

your issue is that this was a premeditated hoax to get some information. I understand your misgivings. I agree that there is an issue here with the Code of Conduct. That said, I want this guy on my team when the time comes. It's absurd to act like he did it out of convenience or for some form of morbid entertainment.

But telling him you are going to shoot him becasuse you think he might know of future attacks (not one going on at the moment), firing a gun next to his head to show him you mean business, and having your guys beat him just seems to me to be West deciding for himself what needs to be done, orders to the contrary be damned.

How many other ways are there to mean business when all of our enemies know that we'll string up our military members for extracting it. The beatings garbage is overplayed. If the guy was physically injured by said beatings, we'd see a different outcome today. He absolutely decided what needed to be done. He's a freaking Infantry Battalion Commander with authority over a battle space. He's in that position because he has proven capable of commanding 800 troops in a combat situation. It's not like the decisions the politicians deciding the issue are making behind desks and sans bad guys.

He got angry at the situation of the bombings, which is totally understandable. But his reaction was simply not what the military had chosen to tolerate.

It's not what our military will tolerate. It's the Geneva Convention that dictates. Sadly, we're the only nation abiding by it. When the balloon really goes up and we have more at stake, we'll slip down the slope too.
See Bold.

Argue as you wish, but the outcome here says the incident was overblown and that the guy is a solid officer, rather than the deraged loony you've tried to imply.
 
LOL....using movie lines trying to make a point???

I see you conveniently didn't go any further with it as we all know the character you've quoted was relieved of his duties

Very entertaining here. You denigrate the idea of using a movie line to make a point, then without taking a breath, use the same movie to make yours. Awesome.
 
See Bold.

Argue as you wish, but the outcome here says the incident was overblown and that the guy is a solid officer, rather than the deraged loony you've tried to imply.

Agreed Papa!!

I would walk through hell with this guy, because you know he has your back.
 

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