‘23 IL WR Carnell Tate (Ohio State commit)

#1,901
#1,901
sjt18 said:
You seem to completely discount or ignore the value of leadership and management. Saban is an elite coach who also has the ability to convince great players to play for him. And he has created a culture of winning. The product on the field has evolved. The culture has likely evolved. But the expectations set by the LEADER are how they've achieved so much, so consistently.

The sum of the talent of the team is nothing without leadership and coaching.
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Saban is what he is because Bama cheats and that is the SOLE reason he is whining like a school girl to anyone who will listen. BAMA has a sh1t NIL program and they are far behind several in this conference and he knows his days are numbered. They have been paying players illegally since before Saban, with Emmert gone Saban won't be around much longer. NOW the point of Saban being a great coach, I think he is. But let's be completely honest he has had the benefit of out talenting everyone because they were buying more. Dodge Chargers use to go a long way. Now it takes a million to even get in the game at minimum
 
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#1,902
#1,902
sjt18 said:
You seem to completely discount or ignore the value of leadership and management. Saban is an elite coach who also has the ability to convince great players to play for him. And he has created a culture of winning. The product on the field has evolved. The culture has likely evolved. But the expectations set by the LEADER are how they've achieved so much, so consistently.

The sum of the talent of the team is nothing without leadership and coaching.
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No. I don't. This isn't an excluded middle.

The post I responded to made a blanket claim that bosses deserve more money than their subordinates. I gave examples where this wasn't the case, without "completely" discounting or ignoring the value of leadership.

Yes, leadership is important. But we can admit its value without making blanket claims that it's by definition more valuable to an organization than the athletes. Saban was an abject failure in the NFL that tries to enforce parity between teams through a draft. He was a decent college coach with decent results until he started landing the classes he did at Alabama. It seems that the quality of player he has at his disposal has a lot to do with the program's success. Thus, it isn't an unquestionable truth that leadership is the most important thing that should be paid more.
 
#1,903
#1,903
Orange_Crush said:
No. I don't. This isn't an excluded middle.

The post I responded to made a blanket claim that bosses deserve more money than their subordinates. I gave examples where this wasn't the case, without "completely" discounting or ignoring the value of leadership.

Yes, leadership is important. But we can admit its value without making blanket claims that it's by definition more valuable to an organization than the athletes. Saban was an abject failure in the NFL that tries to enforce parity between teams through a draft. He was a decent college coach with decent results until he started landing the classes he did at Alabama. It seems that the quality of player he has at his disposal has a lot to do with the program's success. Thus, it isn't an unquestionable truth that leadership is the most important thing that should be paid more.
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Saban was merely decent before landing great classes at Bama? He had the first double digit win season in nearly 40 years at MSU. He then takes over a LSU program that had only one ten win season in the twelve years prior to his arrival. In his first four years he wins a national championship and two SEC titles. That’s a lot more impressive than merely decent.
 
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#1,906
#1,906
BigOrangeTrain said:
Without great coaches these football programs wouldn’t be where they are. Coaches are bosses. Bosses always make much more than the workers. It’s how businesses work. So I have no problem with coaches salaries.

Think about Saban. How many untold millions had he made players in his career? Because of him Bama is what it is. His salary is well worth it.
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They make more than individual workers...

Not the entire work staff!!


That's why in a near free market such as the NFL the players (combined) make about 25-30x the HC.
 
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#1,912
#1,912
Boston Vol said:
Saban was merely decent before landing great classes at Bama? He had the first double digit win season in nearly 40 years at MSU. He then takes over a LSU program that had only one ten win season in the twelve years prior to his arrival. In his first four years he wins a national championship and two SEC titles. That’s a lot more impressive than merely decent.
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"Decent" was probably an understatement, but my point remains. Saban was probably above average at MSU. He actually coached hem to 9 wins in his last season there, but went fairly pedestrian his other years. He was good at LSU, but nowhere near what he's become at Bama.

What's the difference?

His recruiting classes at Alabama.

Saban is a great coach. But it's not just because he uses the force to make droids invisible to stormtroopers. He brings in the best talent in the country and just straight up beats other teams up with them. So, again... It's a truly odd argument to make that he deserves millions of dollars compared to zero, in large(st?) part because he can draw and win with the best talent. IOW... He deserves a huge salary and they deserve no salary because they come and win for him.
 
#1,914
#1,914
sjt18 said:
You seem to completely discount or ignore the value of leadership and management. Saban is an elite coach who also has the ability to convince great players to play for him. And he has created a culture of winning. The product on the field has evolved. The culture has likely evolved. But the expectations set by the LEADER are how they've achieved so much, so consistently.

The sum of the talent of the team is nothing without leadership and coaching.
Click to expand...

well said

imma steal this and insert other more likeable names for future use
 
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#1,915
#1,915
Orange_Crush said:
So, is it wrong because of what it may do to NCAAF as an institution? Or is it wrong for other reasons?
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I could care less about the NCAA............:)
I'm not wanting to get into this debate again (nothing against you, just in general.)
Student/athletes get plenty of stuff for free.........I don't like NIL and never will.

That being said, I'll adapt and live with it. There are a lot of things I have to "live with" I don't like. It's all good.
 
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#1,918
#1,918
Orange_Crush said:
"Decent" was probably an understatement, but my point remains. Saban was probably above average at MSU. He actually coached hem to 9 wins in his last season there, but went fairly pedestrian his other years. He was good at LSU, but nowhere near what he's become at Bama.

What's the difference?

His recruiting classes at Alabama.

Saban is a great coach. But it's not just because he uses the force to make droids invisible to stormtroopers. He brings in the best talent in the country and just straight up beats other teams up with them. So, again... It's a truly odd argument to make that he deserves millions of dollars compared to zero, in large(st?) part because he can draw and win with the best talent. IOW... He deserves a huge salary and they deserve no salary because they come and win for him.
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Let’s look at it. Let’s just say you have Butch Jones the recruiting classes Saban has had. Does he win like Saban? Probably not. You seem to think the only reason Saban wins is because of his recruiting classes. While that’s part of it, it’s not everything. Take Mac Jones. A 3* recruit. Yet Saban turned him into one of the best QBs in SEC history. You think Butch, Dooley, Kiffin or Pruitt could have done that?

The players don’t deserve anywhere near the coaching salaries. Do they deserve something? Yes.
 
#1,920
#1,920
Boston Vol said:
Saban was merely decent before landing great classes at Bama? He had the first double digit win season in nearly 40 years at MSU. He then takes over a LSU program that had only one ten win season in the twelve years prior to his arrival. In his first four years he wins a national championship and two SEC titles. That’s a lot more impressive than merely decent.
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I hear they still have room on their bandwagon fan team. Sounds like you may fit in well..
 
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#1,921
#1,921
BigOrangeTrain said:
Let’s look at it. Let’s just say you have Butch Jones the recruiting classes Saban has had. Does he win like Saban? Probably not. You seem to think the only reason Saban wins is because of his recruiting classes. While that’s part of it, it’s not everything. Take Mac Jones. A 3* recruit. Yet Saban turned him into one of the best QBs in SEC history. You think Butch, Dooley, Kiffin or Pruitt could have done that?

The players don’t deserve anywhere near the coaching salaries. Do they deserve something? Yes.
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Why do so many folks need to argue strictly in absolutes? Only, never, always, "completely' ignoring...

No. I never said that the only reason that he is wins is because of his recruiting classes. But I did say that the reason he dominates is because of them. Take your argument and turn it on its head. Do you think Saban would have dominated the way he has if he'd had lower levels of talent? No. Because he never did. Alabama's massive success in the Saban era isn't because Saban is just THAT much better than everyone else. It's because his athletes are.

Butch may not have won natties with Bama's talent, but Saban never would have won them with Central Michigan's either.

Now, if we establish that, then we have to ask (as another poster did), whether Saban deserves to make a salary that is 100% better than the sum total of his roster. And if we establish the importance of the talent, then it doesn't become such a loose statement to say that he deserves to make more salary than anyone on his roster. Hell, that doesn't prove true in the NFL.

And for the record, I've seen too many teams with individual contributors making more than management, including their bosses. And the bosses were completely fine with that. The bosses wanted a successful team. The bosses wanted to be successful, themselves. And in some industries the "skill" positions rightly demand more $ than their managers. To complete the illustration, they can dominate with the elite players and don't want to try to win with a bunch of scrubs. They understand market forces.
 
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#1,924
#1,924
Boston Vol said:
Saban was merely decent before landing great classes at Bama? He had the first double digit win season in nearly 40 years at MSU. He then takes over a LSU program that had only one ten win season in the twelve years prior to his arrival. In his first four years he wins a national championship and two SEC titles. That’s a lot more impressive than merely decent.
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I can’t stand Saban personally. But he took zero assistants to LSU and won 2 SEC championships in his first 4 years. Then he lost almost his entire coaching staff after 2018 and won again in 2 years. He can find good assistants.

But he has never won with merely “pretty good” talent. Even with ATM out recruiting him this year, and Georgia putting more players in the league last year, Bama has the best roster every year. It’s actually surprising he hasn’t won more titles.
 
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#1,925
#1,925
BigOrangeTrain said:
Let’s look at it. Let’s just say you have Butch Jones the recruiting classes Saban has had. Does he win like Saban? Probably not. You seem to think the only reason Saban wins is because of his recruiting classes. While that’s part of it, it’s not everything. Take Mac Jones. A 3* recruit. Yet Saban turned him into one of the best QBs in SEC history. You think Butch, Dooley, Kiffin or Pruitt could have done that?

The players don’t deserve anywhere near the coaching salaries. Do they deserve something? Yes.
Click to expand...

I think Kiffin and maybe Dooley could have done that with Mac Jones and Bama-like talent at the OL and skill positions. Maybe even Butch too. You have to remember, at one point Bama’s entire 1st string defense was 5-stars, and the OL is basically NFL. It’s not hard to make average players and average coaches look good with ridiculous talent. Hell - Pruitt was an otherworldly DC at Bama and what is he doing now? The list is long and distinguished of the great coaches at Bama that didn’t squat outside of that system.

Saban gets credit for making it work and putting the system together, which makes him the GOAT with the results. But I don’t think he could replicate what he did at Bama anywhere else.
 
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