In Italy, Economy and Law Leave Many Single Fathers Broke and Homeless

[therealUT]

I point out one case of injustice and inequality against men here in the west, and you counter that with injustice and inequality in parts of Asia.

Heaven forbid if all I'm asking for is some equality or partnership between the two sides. :unsure:

I am simply asking you to explain your comment. You stated that there is a problem with how relationships work in the West; am I to understand that as a tacit admission that you believe relationships work better in the East?

Further, what solution are you proposing? I understand you to be very anti-feminism; are you against having women in the workplace? are you against equal pay for equal work? If so, then how can you be against those ideas and yet also against child support being levied more heavily on men?

Personally, I think women ought to be treated equal to men and decisions regarding employment, child care, child support, and alimony should not be, in any manner, gender dependent. However, as stated above, I do not see how one who does not think the first decision (employment) should be gender independent can then argue that the third and fourth decisions (child support and alimony) should be gender independent.

That said, please propose what it is you think the solution to the relationships in the West ought to be.

 

[aredfox28]

The system is weighted against us and the punishment is counter productive to fixing any part of the problem.

Topic change: are you in Pa or did I misread that somewhere?

Nope, I'm in pa, 25 miles south of state college .. and yeah it is counter productive.. I live how if your behind in support so much, they take your drivers license and everything, how the hell are you supposed to get to work if you are behind..makes a lot of sense huh?

 

[YorkVol]

Nope, I'm in pa, 25 miles south of state college .. and yeah it is counter productive.. I live how if your behind in support so much, they take your drivers license and everything, how the hell are you supposed to get to work if you are behind..makes a lot of sense huh?

Thought so, I'm a few hours SE...

My barber just went to jail for not paying enough. He was sending money, but couldn't afford the whole amount so they locked nim up for 60 days. Now he's behind even firther.

 

[aredfox28]

Thought so, I'm a few hours SE...

My barber just went to jail for not paying enough. He was sending money, but couldn't afford the whole amount so they locked nim up for 60 days. Now he's behind even firther.

Unreal! That's the dumb part. Atleast she was getting some money. Now shes getting none..and he gets back even further, and has to pay it all back,even after the child has turned 18 and outta school..

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I am simply asking you to explain your comment. You stated that there is a problem with how relationships work in the West; am I to understand that as a tacit admission that you believe relationships work better in the East?

Further, what solution are you proposing? I understand you to be very anti-feminism; are you against having women in the workplace? are you against equal pay for equal work? If so, then how can you be against those ideas and yet also against child support being levied more heavily on men?

Personally, I think women ought to be treated equal to men and decisions regarding employment, child care, child support, and alimony should not be, in any manner, gender dependent. However, as stated above, I do not see how one who does not think the first decision (employment) should be gender independent can then argue that the third and fourth decisions (child support and alimony) should be gender independent.

That said, please propose what it is you think the solution to the relationships in the West ought to be.

No, I am not against equal pay for equal work. What would make you think I'm not for equality?

 

[possumslayer]

I've worked in companies where women got equal pay but don't give equal work ,reverse discrimination won't work either ! Women can not do the same hard physical work as men.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[therealUT]

No, I am not against equal pay for equal work. What would make you think I'm not for equality?

So are you suggesting that there is a wage gap?

I take this stance to be interpreted in one of three ways:

1. You honestly, in the face of hard evidence, believe that there is no wage gap.

2. You see that there is a wage gap; however, you do not believe that women are doing equal work (this accounts for the appearance of the lack of equal pay).

3. A wage gap is a notion that does not really matter because women should not be making the same as men anyway.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I take this stance to be interpreted in one of three ways:

1. You honestly, in the face of hard evidence, believe that there is no wage gap.

2. You see that there is a wage gap; however, you do not believe that women are doing equal work (this accounts for the appearance of the lack of equal pay).

3. A wage gap is a notion that does not really matter because women should not be making the same as men anyway.

trUT, why are you sidetracking? This thread is about men being driven to poverty due to divorce, alimony and child support, yet here you are arguing about a perceived wage gap.

Can you for once stick to the topic?

 

[therealUT]

trUT, why are you sidetracking? This thread is about men being driven to poverty due to divorce, alimony and child support, yet here you are arguing about a perceived wage gap.

Can you for once stick to the topic?

Can you answer the questions? They are certainly related to the topic. If there is a wage-gap, if you want to limit the opportunities that women have to earn their livings, then, in all fairness, you should place the burden of alimony and child support on the ex-husband.

So, please answer the questions.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Can you answer the questions? They are certainly related to the topic. If there is a wage-gap, if you want to limit the opportunities that women have to earn their livings, then, in all fairness, you should place the burden of alimony and child support on the ex-husband.

So, please answer the questions.

Who is limiting the opportunities that woman have to earn a living? Women have free will and choose their professions or choose to be housewives.

 

[therealUT]

Who is limiting the opportunities that woman have to earn a living? Women have free will and choose their professions or choose to be housewives.

If there is a wage gap (to which every compilation of wage statistics points), then women do not have the same opportunities as men; i.e., women do not have the same opportunity to earn the same pay for the same positions.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf

The Gender Pay Gap by Industry - NYTimes.com

Now, reasons may be given (some may be defensible) for the wage gap:

1. Women do not negotiate as well or as aggressively as men do for higher wages (I have not seen any data to back this claim, though).

2. Private businesses knowingly provide smaller wages to women in order to hedge against the higher health care costs (and time off) from potential pregnancies.

(1) appears baseless, while (2) ostensibly has merit. However, it is pure sexism and a woman who has no desire to ever have children (hell, she may even have her tubes tied) will be treated, with regard to wages, just like every other woman (i.e., a potential health care cost risk). So, (2), is absolutely indefensible.

 

[Weezy]

I didn't see many women in college for fields that have high median starting salaries. For instance tech fields. But I don't believe that accounts for the entire gap, I still believe there is a discrepancy.

 

[therealUT]

I didn't see many women in college for fields that have high median starting salaries. For instance tech fields. But I don't believe that accounts for the entire gap, I still believe there is a discrepancy.

While there is a general wage gap, which spans all industry, wage gaps also exist in each specific industry and for almost every position. What accounts for the gender wage gap is gender.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

For trUT...

She must have found out about your rants in here and just had to make a video about it today.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqEeCCuFFO8&feature=g-u-u[/youtube]

 

[volinbham]

I take this stance to be interpreted in one of three ways:

1. You honestly, in the face of hard evidence, believe that there is no wage gap.

2. You see that there is a wage gap; however, you do not believe that women are doing equal work (this accounts for the appearance of the lack of equal pay).

3. A wage gap is a notion that does not really matter because women should not be making the same as men anyway.

The wage gap is a tricky thing.

It's actually reversed for young single women (yet that never seems to be viewed as a problem)

Years in the workforce and straight years in the workforce (e.g. not leaving for motherhood) has explanatory power in many cases

I'm not saying there isn't a pay bias in some cases but much of the wage gap data is so aggregated that it is useless (e.g. average wages for women vs average wages for men).

 

[volinbham]

While there is a general wage gap, which spans all industry, wage gaps also exist in each specific industry and for almost every position. What accounts for the gender wage gap is gender.

One documented difference is total time in the workforce or cumulative experience. Another is consistency of work record.

Finally, as stated in an earlier post many industries show a wage gap difference in favor of women in early in the career stream. Is that a gender-caused gap?

 

[therealUT]

The wage gap is a tricky thing.

It's actually reversed for young single women (yet that never seems to be viewed as a problem)

Years in the workforce and straight years in the workforce (e.g. not leaving for motherhood) has explanatory power in many cases

I'm not saying there isn't a pay bias in some cases but much of the wage gap data is so aggregated that it is useless (e.g. average wages for women vs average wages for men).

It would be nice to have the data on time in workforce and salary for men and women; however, without that data, it is simply an assumption in an effort to render the "wage gap" irrelevant.

There is data on median years in tenure by age and sex; there is not enough of a gap between men and women (in some cases women have more tenure) to provide for the larger wage gap.

One documented difference is total time in the workforce or cumulative experience. Another is consistency of work record.

Finally, as stated in an earlier post many industries show a wage gap difference in favor of women in early in the career stream. Is that a gender-caused gap?

I would like to see the data; and, yes, that would likely be a gender-caused gap (which is not unheard of with regard reverse-discrimination programs).

 

[volinbham]

Here's my thought on why the gender gap is different for young single women. I see our students graduate each year and consistently, the females take their coursework (in my field) more seriously, are more mature and do more to prepare for a career. In short, they are the better employee pool and thus get better early salaries. Gender may play an indirect role but the compensation is based on real and perceived performance differences; not simply on male vs female.

Likewise, studies show that men work more hours than females even in the same jobs. Perhaps it's different work/family balance values but never the less, there is a difference in real and perceived effort dedicated to the job.

I'm sure there is some discrimination but conclude that is a small part of the wage differences we see.

 

[therealUT]

Here's my thought on why the gender gap is different for young single women. I see our students graduate each year and consistently, the females take their coursework (in my field) more seriously, are more mature and do more to prepare for a career. In short, they are the better employee pool and thus get better early salaries. Gender may play an indirect role but the compensation is based on real and perceived performance differences; not simply on male vs female.

Do you find it odd that your field (marketing) has one of the largest gender gap discrepancies, yet your own observations attest to females being more qualified?

 

[volinbham]

Do you find it odd that your field (marketing) has one of the largest gender gap discrepancies, yet your own observations attest to females being more qualified?

No. I'm saying that out of the gate the females have an edge due to effort. The core question is whether or not that effort and putting career above all else continues and typically it doesn't. Sure there is some good ole boyism in every field but given how competitive things are most companies put the pay where the effort is. That is the data missing from aggregated wage studies that only look at titles.

 

[YorkVol]

Here's my thought on why the gender gap is different for young single women. I see our students graduate each year and consistently, the females take their coursework (in my field) more seriously, are more mature and do more to prepare for a career. In short, they are the better employee pool and thus get better early salaries. Gender may play an indirect role but the compensation is based on real and perceived performance differences; not simply on male vs female.

Likewise, studies show that men work more hours than females even in the same jobs. Perhaps it's different work/family balance values but never the less, there is a difference in real and perceived effort dedicated to the job.

I'm sure there is some discrimination but conclude that is a small part of the wage differences we see.

This makes sense to me. I've had 3 different jobs since retiring from the Army and have seen no difference in pay between men and women doing the same job. But, I could see my daughter, who has had two promotions since her graduation in Dec 09, leaving the work force when they decide to have kids. The comparison between her school performance and subsequent marketability and her husbands aligns with the above.

 

[therealUT]

No. I'm saying that out of the gate the females have an edge due to effort. The core question is whether or not that effort and putting career above all else continues and typically it doesn't. Sure there is some good ole boyism in every field but given how competitive things are most companies put the pay where the effort is. That is the data missing from aggregated wage studies that only look at titles.

But, there are studies that look at tenure in a position and there is no way that the discrepancies in tenure (which are all less than 10%) can account for the larger discrepancies in wages (on average 22%; 32% for marketing).

 

[BigPapaVol]

But, there are studies that look at tenure in a position and there is no way that the discrepancies in tenure (which are all less than 10%) can account for the larger discrepancies in wages (on average 22%; 32% for marketing).

seems to me that a libertarian, particularly one of the harcore variety, wouldn't give a crap either way. Inequity that is a market driven norm shouldn't matter one iota, no?

Certainly there are employer reasons for the discrepancy and why should anyone aside from the employer dictate?

 

[therealUT]

seems to me that a libertarian, particularly one of the harcore variety, wouldn't give a crap either way. Inequity that is a market driven norm shouldn't matter one iota, no?

Certainly there are employer reasons for the discrepancy and why should anyone aside from the employer dictate?

I think employers should be able to pay anyone whatever they so please. That said, there is still a wage gap, it is based upon gender discrimination, and it is indefensible.

 

[BigPapaVol]

I think employers should be able to pay anyone whatever they so please. That said, there is still a wage gap, it is based upon gender discrimination, and it is indefensible.

how in the world is it indefensible? There is a wage gap and presumably none on the short end of the stick is indentured. To the extent that accepting the inequity is voluntary, it is absolutely defensible. My job in hiring is to minimize the pay I put out to effectively get the job done. If someone is willing to accept what I offer, I'm willing to employ them.