Increase Class Size - Layoff Teachers

#51
#51
Haslem's education reform ideas are horrid. He expects our teachers to produce national ranked scores while promoting less and less teacher to student interaction. Horrible idea. Here is an idea, lets cut motivated college educated professionals in a dire economy while stresfully increasing the standards and class size of the remaining tenured teachers all in the name of Educational Reform.
 
#53
#53
Haslem's education reform ideas are horrid. He expects our teachers to produce national ranked scores while promoting less and less teacher to student interaction. Horrible idea. Here is an idea, lets cut motivated college educated professionals in a dire economy while stresfully increasing the standards and class size of the remaining tenured teachers all in the name of Educational Reform.

while we're at it, let's literally frack our own faces.
 
#55
#55
I disagree, and fail to understand why you think that. Why can a free market education system not provide for the masses? The free market does so with food and clothing. Why can't a fluid free market meet educational demands?

Public education does not offer a "BMW". They offer a Gremlin. The free market will offer the Gremlin as well, but it will also offer everything in between. We'll all be better off, unless "being better off" means people are equally dumb.

I've got the day off and been spending much of my free time as of late reading on this subject, so get ready for a short book.

My point is this: The benefits of equity in attainment are obvious, and need to be achieved. Free markets by their very nature ensure efficiency, not equity.

First, a look at charter schools: Many have hailed its benefits, but the bottom line is that they have by and large shown little to no improvement in educational outcomes, even a sizable percentage (around one fifth IIRC) have actually done worse than their counterpart public schools within the same districts, while the same amount have done better. The middle three fifths tend to do about the same. They may operate more cheaply, but to this point there is no sign that this form of competition actually makes for smarter students. The same has been found of voucher programs.

The original intention of charter schools was to be a cooperative program with public schools to test out new ideas, measure success and implement them in public schools. They have instead turned into competitors.

If I understand you right, public education systems are essentially a monopoly on education and therefore have no incentives for improvement. That is being held up as proof-positive of the failure of public education, in spite of the fact that about three dozen other countries in Asia and Europe have utilized public education, with many cases in which that is the only option, and shown clear, marked improvement. Even broader shifts towards private education, such as those in Chile, have shown no marked improvement in achievement. That alone contradicts the original claim.

The failure of our public school systems can be traced primarily to its origins: A hundred years ago, something like five or six percent of people in the US completed high school. The goal at that time became simply to get most citizens through secondary school, and by an large it worked. Something like 85% of people in the US now graduate high school.

The paradigm has shifted, though, to producing students in large numbers that are ready for college, and policies so far have been ineffective, but there is 100% clear proof that it can be done, because it has been done.

It takes a very basic look at the way competitive a market needs to be organized to function properly, and why the very nature of education throws a huge wrench in the premise. Among the basic needs are a large number of buyers and sellers, a relatively homogeneous product, free entry and exit of firms, lack of transport costs, and independent decision making to ensure profit maximization. Two other major aspects are perfect conditions in information and mobility.

The first problem is treating students as buyers of education and schools as sellers of that product. Students are not buyers here, they are consumers, and those are two distinctly different things. The taxpayers are the buyers of education, and what they are buying are the greater social benefits of having schools in their state and community. If public funding were to be eliminated and students were truly turned into buyers, then the quality of the education one could afford would be tied to their means, resulting in an inherently unequal outcome. As for the fact that students are not buyers, that by itself creates a market distortion. Similarly, schools are not sellers of education, but rather producers of it.

Next, back to the BMWs and Gremlins. Car companies do not exist to ensure universal access to high quality cars. Clothing companies do not exist to ensure universal access to nice clothes. Food companies do not exist to ensure universal access to food. They exist to make profits producing those products to buyers when and where there is demand. When it comes to consumer goods, that is the desired outcome and as such that market form works best. Moreover, they can enter a market as soon as they can make a profit, and they can exit a market as soon as they can't. Imposing this form on schools would not lead to socially desirable outcomes. Not everyone can afford to buy a new car, so they take the bus. Not everyone can afford to feed themselves or their families properly, so there are food stamps (which also explains the presence of food deserts, where access to proper grocery stores is limited or non-existent, and there is a proliferation of corner stores with junk foods). In a free market with perfect conditions for entry and exit of schools, not everybody could afford basic education. Absent a voucher system, schools would not operate in areas where there is low profitability, and if they did, it would be a lesser quality product, while higher quality teachers and staffs would open up shop in areas. There's a reason that BMW dealerships are adjacent to nice neighborhoods, and poor neighborhoods might have a Kia dealer if anything. That's the natural distribution of goods in markets, and is fundamentally incompatible with universal educational achievement.

Next is independent decision making for maximization of profit and utility. This concept has already been breached by the presence of compulsory education. Students, aka consumers of education are already forced to stay in the market longer than some may have chosen to if they were free to do so. Consumption has already been forced into inelasticity. Here again, the very nature of a free market education system proves incompatible with the notion of universal college readiness, or a decent education at the least. If compulsory education stays in place, then that means there is a continuous presence of students whom it would be unprofitable to educate, i.e. special needs, disabled, etc. It's not unlike people with a strong family history of early cardiac failure being unable to purchase health insurance because it becomes practically impossible to insure them and maintain profitability. This ties into the notion of schools as selling a service; in many districts, they are forced to compete with charter schools for increasing the overall student body in order to increase funding. The basis for selling a consumer of education on attending that particular score must be quantitative in nature, which requires the presence of standardized testing to show achievement. I think we're all in relative agreement that this will introduce things like "teaching to the test" which ties into Campbell's law: "The more any quantitative social indicator is used for social decision-making, the more subject it will be to corruption pressures and the more apt it will be to distort and corrupt the social processes it is intended to monitor." Fundamentally, performance-based funding, or the profit motive in a free market system will wind up occurring in the form of incentive to cheat rather than to truly reform.

As for perfect information and mobility, they get undermined as well. In a perfect free market system, every buyer is aware of the cost and quality of every good the buyer is selling specifically because of the price mechanism, while every seller is aware of the size of a market and demand for what they are selling through that same price mechanism. Simply requiring everyone to go to school completely undermines the pricing mechanism. As for mobility, I hinted at it earlier, it requires all resources and firms to be able to enter and exit markets. This extends to students, specifically, who are relatively immobile.

I'll take a break from typing for a bit, but I read a few reports and a book by Marc Tucker, as well as some serious digging on what reforms have proven to be effective elsewhere in the world.

But, for now, hopefully I've made some sort of impression as to why I believe that a free market education system is fundamentally incompatible with producing high achievement across the board and would ultimately leave us in the dust in the global community.
 
#56
#56
wow. not reading. sorry. I usually read your posts...but I draw the line somewhere between the start and end of that one.
 
#57
#57
wow. not reading. sorry. I usually read your posts...but I draw the line somewhere between the start and end of that one.

Cliff: The concepts of having an efficient market-run education system and closing the achievement gap while catching up to the rest of the world don't jive.
 
#61
#61
If I understand you right, public education systems are essentially a monopoly on education and therefore have no incentives for improvement. That is being held up as proof-positive of the failure of public education, in spite of the fact that about three dozen other countries in Asia and Europe have utilized public education, with many cases in which that is the only option, and shown clear, marked improvement. Even broader shifts towards private education, such as those in Chile, have shown no marked improvement in achievement. That alone contradicts the original claim.

Holy crap, that's a long post!

They have some incentives, but not nearly the same incentive as the free market. So America is making a Gremlin, a small part of the world is making Civics, but nobody is making cadillacs because everybody runs monopolistic public education systems.

You say the market is good at creating efficiency, but not equity? As opposed to what? Which system is good at producing equity? When government sets out to create equity, we end up with less of it. That's why the freest nations, like the US, have relatively high income mobility.
 
#63
#63
You say the market is good at creating efficiency, but not equity? As opposed to what? Which system is good at producing equity? When government sets out to create equity, we end up with less of it. That's why the freest nations, like the US, have relatively high income mobility.
Again, I'm going back to Finland. There are almost no private schools there, no charter schools, strong teachers unions and a fundamentally egalitarian approach to education, equitable by its very nature. All children are placed in the same classrooms without tracking and regardless of ability or special needs. They produce the smartest students in the world and spend a fraction of what we do on education.

The failure of the education system in the US is not an indictment of public education, because public education works, and we have definitive proof that it works.

The US was the first developed country on Earth to move to require secondary education of all its citizens, and when it was implemented, it worked and the result was that we had unequivocally the best education system on the planet. That system has been rendered obsolete by the passage of time, and now we need to catch up.

There's absolutely no way working conditions will be lowered to the point where we can bring back low skill jobs from China, so high levels of education and skill is the only way out.

The only challenge you brought up to this was the size difference between a country of a few million and the 300million in the US, I said there's no reason a similar system couldn't be implemented at the state level rather than the federal level, and that would require the repeal of much federal control over education.
 
#64
#64
Again, I'm going back to Finland. There are almost no private schools there, no charter schools, strong teachers unions and a fundamentally egalitarian approach to education, equitable by its very nature. All children are placed in the same classrooms without tracking and regardless of ability or special needs. They produce the smartest students in the world and spend a fraction of what we do on education.

But comparing educational practices of the Fins to the states will not correlate, there is no general dependence between the two. As you noted the only "challenge" was "the size difference between a country of a few million and a country of 300 million".. which is a MAJOR difference. In comparison, our largest city has around 3 million more people than the entire country of Finland. Not too mention the general (and I use that term liberally) demographical, cultural as well as social and economical differences that a society of 300 million produce subsequently to that of a country of a 5 million. On paper the practices of the Fins in terms of "bang for the buck" (if you will) should be a notion that all countries should mirror... yet unfortunately educational reform for the US of A is unprececedented therefore there is no model of efficiency to scale... In other words John Dewey is not walking through the door.
 
#65
#65
Again, I'm going back to Finland. There are almost no private schools there, no charter schools, strong teachers unions and a fundamentally egalitarian approach to education, equitable by its very nature. All children are placed in the same classrooms without tracking and regardless of ability or special needs. They produce the smartest students in the world and spend a fraction of what we do on education.

The failure of the education system in the US is not an indictment of public education, because public education works, and we have definitive proof that it works.

The US was the first developed country on Earth to move to require secondary education of all its citizens, and when it was implemented, it worked and the result was that we had unequivocally the best education system on the planet. That system has been rendered obsolete by the passage of time, and now we need to catch up.

There's absolutely no way working conditions will be lowered to the point where we can bring back low skill jobs from China, so high levels of education and skill is the only way out.

The only challenge you brought up to this was the size difference between a country of a few million and the 300million in the US, I said there's no reason a similar system couldn't be implemented at the state level rather than the federal level, and that would require the repeal of much federal control over education.

We have proof that some public education systems work better than others. How do we know it works when we have nothing else to compare it to? In other words how do we know the result is relatively good compared to a private education system when a wide-scale private education model hasn't been tested?
 
#66
#66
We have proof that some public education systems work better than others. How do we know it works when we have nothing else to compare it to? In other words how do we know the result is relatively good compared to a private education system when a wide-scale private education model hasn't been tested?

Private educations are better.. I base this solely on what a social elitist once told me.
 
#67
#67
But comparing educational practices of the Fins to the states will not correlate, there is no general dependence between the two. As you noted the only "challenge" was "the size difference between a country of a few million and a country of 300 million".. which is a MAJOR difference. In comparison, our largest city has around 3 million more people than the entire country of Finland. Not too mention the general (and I use that term liberally) demographical, cultural as well as social and economical differences that a society of 300 million produce subsequently to that of a country of a 5 million. On paper the practices of the Fins in terms of "bang for the buck" (if you will) should be a notion that all countries should mirror... yet unfortunately educational reform for the US of A is unprececedented therefore there is no model of efficiency to scale... In other words John Dewey is not walking through the door.
First, the results found in Finland happened ten years ago, and the result has actually been an influx of families moving there from all over so their kids can get a good education. The heterogeneity of their society is definitely changing and all signs show that their education model has been perfectly able to adapt.

Without going into too much detail, the reason that it works is because strict, top down control of what goes on in the classroom is not there, and there is almost no standardized testing. Instead, the teachers are extremely well-educated, as getting into a university's school of education in Finland is the academic equivalent of getting into law school or medical school here. The teachers are then given a very loose framework of curriculum and standards, and are mostly free to educate any given classroom and any given student in the way they feel is best.
 
#68
#68
We have proof that some public education systems work better than others. How do we know it works when we have nothing else to compare it to? In other words how do we know the result is relatively good compared to a private education system when a wide-scale private education model hasn't been tested?

It has been tested, I referenced Chile and turning education over to the private market when the Chicago Boys went in. Schools became more efficient, but the gains in education outcomes compared to previous standing and the rest of the region and the world were somewhere between negligible and non-existent.

That would be fine if our only issue was that we were spending too much on schools, which is true, but the larger issue at work here is that the achievement gap needs to be narrowed greatly as well as providing better educational outcomes across all classes. A fully privatized system is in direct conflict with that.
 
#69
#69
Also, this is no overnight process. It basically took the Fins 40 years to get to where they are. The system works incredibly well but it took place on a social current towards making teaching a desirable profession. The extent to which public school teachers are dogged in the US is incredible. I fully agree that current tenure standards from unions need to be done away with, but rhetorical assault on teachers in general is idiotic and extremely harmful, and IMO a huge stepping stone on the path to Brawndo becoming the number one selling thirst mutilator in the US.
 
#70
#70
First, the results found in Finland happened ten years ago, and the result has actually been an influx of families moving there from all over so their kids can get a good education. The heterogeneity of their society is definitely changing and all signs show that their education model has been perfectly able to adapt.

Without going into too much detail, the reason that it works is because strict, top down control of what goes on in the classroom is not there, and there is almost no standardized testing. Instead, the teachers are extremely well-educated, as getting into a university's school of education in Finland is the academic equivalent of getting into law school or medical school here. The teachers are then given a very loose framework of curriculum and standards, and are mostly free to educate any given classroom and any given student in the way they feel is best.

Very interesting. Especially the standards they place on quality educators. Sounds very accountable. I completely feel standardized test should be obsolete. They definitely have a model of success that is unparalleled.
 
#71
#71
I have a lot of thoughts and much experience on this topic. However, I want to limit myself to addressing some of the points that milo raised.

You say that charter schools don't produce better results. I will accept your statement as truth without trying to evaluate it. They cost less. If you can get the same results for less money, then you have improvement.

Does Finland have the immigration issues, poverty issues, religious issues, gang issues, drug issues, absentee father issues, general apathy of parents issues, etc that we have here? If they don't have these issues, then it is very possible that differences in outcome are highly related to issues other than education system format.

You have an expensive antique vase that you need to send cross country. Your only available options are FedEx or USPS. Which do you choose?

In our current publicly funded, government control school system, do you think that children in Beverly Hills get the same education as children in Compton? If you don't, then all of your arguments about equity are moot, because the current type of system can't deliver it either.

I may have more later. I just want you to think about this.

(disclosure: my wife is a teacher. my parents were both teachers. I have two uncles that teach and three aunts. my father-in-law was a teacher. I have at least 10 cousins that teach. I am surrounded by it. I mentor at a school. I was a tutor. I volunteered to coach the basketball team for years.)
 
#72
#72
This is the email I sent to my state rep and senator.

Hello,

I think that the governor has a bad plan. The reduction in classroom sizes will hinder educational outcomes. I understand and agree with the need to reduce costs. I have many ideas for how this can be done, from reducing certain benefits to reducing administrative costs to restructuring the way supplies are bought to cutting sports programs that benefit a few but cost us all a lot of money. However, the interaction that occurs between pupil and teacher is the heart of the educational process. Reducing the number of teachers won't really affect our more intelligent students, they get under-served already. The children at the lowest end won't suffer all that much either, considering all the extra help, support and programs available to them. The students that will suffer the most are the average students.

I would prefer that we had a more free-market oriented educational system. But we don't. If we are going to have our current system instead, then those people that spend our money have a moral obligation to give us the best system that they can manage. The marginal amount of money to be saved under this plan is just a drop in the bucket. As long as we have that bucket, then let's make sure that it is the best available bucket.

I don't have any children yet, but I have to pay for other people's children. To use some made up numbers for illustrative purposes: if you are going to take my money to buy something for someone else, then I would rather you take $10 instead of $9.75 and buy them a better product. I would rather spend more and it be worth something than spend less and know it was wasted.

Thanks,
(name removed to protect the innocent)
Columbia, TN
 
#74
#74
On charter schools, I agree. If the issue at hand were only about how to keep educational costs down, then it would be a perfectly valid argument to make. But the issue at hand is universal educational attainment.

As for Finland's social issues, I did comment about their feelings toward schooling in general compared to ours, but even compared to other countries with low poverty, absentee parents, gang activity, apathy, etc., it is still far superior. The overriding theme is still a very high social value placed on education and the teaching profession being highly sought after, which raises the quality and qualifications of teachers, which then allows for greater autonomy in the classroom. I don't see how social issues here would produce results in the other direction.

I recognize that our current system is not set up for equity. There's a difference between that and saying public systems cannot deliver equitable results, and an even bigger leap to say that private education CAN deliver equitable results. My argument is simple: We have a desperate need in this country for high level, equitable attainment in all areas, especially math and science, and neither our public education system as its currently constituted nor a privatized education model can deliver that.

Glad to hear you come from a line of teachers. I might be open to it someday. I've done some tutoring for college freshmen taking precalculus over the last year or so, as well as personal training which is teaching in its own way.
 
#75
#75
I'm sure it has already been said, but, the public school system is an embarrassment. Not because of the teachers, the parents. Many parents expect 100% of the education to occur at school. They, the parents, have no desire to push their kids academically or have any involvement whatsoever.

Kids with involved parents do much better in school. This is not a teacher problem or Governor problem.

Signed,
Captain Obvious
 
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