India, Pakistan, and Kashmir

#251
#251
tvolsfan said:
I think it would have made things difficult, seeing how important Moscow was to their rail system. I don’t think it makes them surrender right away, though. They had a **** ton of bodies to throw in the way of the German army, and they were going to use them.
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That may be significant. Russia could keep retreating eastward, and I think much of its war industry would still be there, but obviously it needed to move stuff north and south along the front.

Had the fighting reached Moscow, I don't see that it would have easier to take than Stalingrad was.
 
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#252
#252
Agree Velo. The Germans ran into the same situation at Stalingrad that we had in Korea when the Chinese massed 500k plus troops at the border and said "No Mas"...endless waves of men, even when poorly armed in Russias case at times, can simply over run their enemies...no enough munitions, rounds, or men to pull triggers to neutralize them all...and the Russians were prepared to fight to the last man, which should be respected. I always wondered how Hitler could have thoight it a good idea to attack Russia...the video above shows pretty clearly that Hitler had no choice...he had 2 months to take the russian oil fields...or else. They ssimply didnt have enough fuel to fight on all of the fronts they had... and were running out of horses.
 
#253
#253
Velo Vol said:
Had the fighting reached Moscow, I don't see that it would have easier to take than Stalingrad was.
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Should have bypassed them both and laid siege. Of course, that didn't work out so well for them at Leningrad...
 
#254
#254
marcusluvsvols said:
Agree Velo. The Germans ran into the same situation at Stalingrad that we had in Korea when the Chinese massed 500k plus troops at the border and said "No Mas"...endless waves of men, even when poorly armed in Russias case at times, can simply over run their enemies...no enough munitions, rounds, or men to pull triggers to neutralize them all...and the Russians were prepared to fight to the last man, which should be respected. I always wondered how Hitler could have thoight it a good idea to attack Russia...the video above shows pretty clearly that Hitler had no choice...he had 2 months to take the russian oil fields...or else. They ssimply didnt have enough fuel to fight on all of the fronts they had... and were running out of horses.
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It's interesting looking at the eastern front campaign from the standpoint of oil. I'll add, though, that history is always more complicated than one factor.

I watched another video by the same guy in which he kind of pushes back against what you're saying above: The Germans were only defeated by the brute force of waves of Russians.

It's true that Russia was able to send in more reinforcements as the fight went on, but strategy, tactics, intelligence were also key.

He notes that much of the first few editions of western post-war history were drawn largely from the accounts of German generals, who obviously were interested in making themselves look better. To the extent that western historians had access to the Russian account, it was often dismissed as Cold War propaganda.
 
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#255
#255
Velo Vol said:
It's interesting looking at the eastern front campaign from the standpoint of oil. I'll add, though, that history is always more complicated than one factor.

I watched another video by the same guy in which he kind of pushes back against what you're saying above: The Germans were only defeated by the brute force of waves of Russians.

It's true that Russia was able to send in more reinforcements as the fight went on, but strategy, tactics, intelligence were also key.

He notes that much of the first few editions of western post-war history were drawn largely from the accounts of German generals, who obviously were interested in making themselves look better. To the extent that western historians had access to the Russian account, it was often dismissed as Cold War propaganda.
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That guy came across as a low key soviet sympathizer in the couple of videos I watched.

It’s true Russia improved as the war went on, but their casualty rates early on were honestly embarrassing. The only reason they were in the war long enough for the other stuff to matter was the ability to lose enormous numbers of troop without running out.
 
#256
#256
The amounts of russians killed was staggering...Stalingrad alone was. Russia probably lost considerably more men in ww2 than we lost in ww2, korea, and viet nam put together, right? Perhaps even ww1 as well? I admittedly dont know our totals from any of the above except Viet Nam off the top of my head...and that Russia lost incredible numbers of men, even after Stalin had killed millions and millions already.
 
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#257
#257
marcusluvsvols said:
The amounts of russians killed was staggering...Stalingrad alone was. Russia probably lost considerably more men in ww2 than we lost in ww2, korea, and viet nam put together, right? Perhaps even ww1 as well? I admittedly dont know our totals from any of the above except Viet Nam off the top of my head...and that Russia lost incredible numbers of men, even after Stalin had killed millions and millions already.
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Yes. The losses the Soviets incurred during WWII had an impact on the society and culture of Russia like the losses we had during the Civil War, except the losses the Soviets had were an even higher percentage of the population.
 
#258
#258
tvolsfan said:
That guy came across as a low key soviet sympathizer in the couple of videos I watched.

It’s true Russia improved as the war went on, but their casualty rates early on were honestly embarrassing. The only reason they were in the war long enough for the other stuff to matter was the ability to lose enormous numbers of troop without running out.
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Here's a related talk. He points out that Russian fighting right after the invasion was really handicapped because its military was in a state of transition. A lot of the leadership and training had recently changed (e.g., Stalin's purges). As the war went on the creme rose to the top and the Russians figured stuff out.

 
#259
#259
There are several good presentations on WWII on YouTube. Robert Citino has several there regarding why the Wehrmacht continued fighting even when the war was already lost.





 
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#260
#260
Velo Vol said:
Here's a related talk. He points out that Russian fighting right after the invasion was really handicapped because its military was in a state of transition. A lot of the leadership and training had recently changed (e.g., Stalin's purges). As the war went on the creme rose to the top and the Russians figured stuff out.

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That is definitely true. My point was just that almost all other countries would already have been forced to capitulate by then.
 
#261
#261
tvolsfan said:
That is definitely true. My point was just that almost all other countries would already have been forced to capitulate by then.
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Russia had twice as many people as Germany. The Germans gambled that it would quickly collapse; they were wrong.


An interesting point in the above video: the German logistics officers predicted as early as 1940 that an invasion would be pretty smooth sailing for Germany for the first 500 miles, then it would start having problems getting supplies to the front. They were right. And ignored. This handicap slowed down the push and obviously things blew up when winter arrived.
 
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#262
#262
Velo Vol said:
Russia had twice as many people as Germany. The Germans gambled that it would quickly collapse; they were wrong.

An interesting point in the above video: the German logistics officers predicted as early as 1940 that an invasion would be pretty smooth sailing for Germany for the first 500 miles, then it would start having problems getting supplies to the front. They were right. And ignored. This handicap slowed down the push and obviously things blew up when winter arrived.
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The Germans also thought if they could take Moscow, the Soviets would push for peace quickly.
 
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#264
#264
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#267
#267
05_never_again said:
Yes. The losses the Soviets incurred during WWII had an impact on the society and culture of Russia like the losses we had during the Civil War, except the losses the Soviets had were an even higher percentage of the population.
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Because of this thread, i read the entire wikipedia history of ww2...and every lead from the home thread. I dont know how many hours..5 or 6 hours of reading though. I actually read every single thing they had to say about ww2...all the naval battles blow by blow (never knew leyte was almost as important as midway) all of the aerial campaigns (very cool as well) even the fighting and murder of german soldiers after they had already officially surrendered. Amazing stuff to read about. Highly recommend.

Also, yes...Russia lost more people in ww2 than we have lost in every conflict and war put together. Even the civil war. The amount of people that died is truly amazing, and millions of them starved or were killed by disease. Very sad...

Fun fact...about 1500 people were arrested either in leningrad or stalingrad...FOR CANNIBALISM...thats how starved those poor people were. Boiling belts and shoes to eat the leather...police would shoot you on site for stealing a loaf of bread. Some farmers who had more than they could eat sold the excess at high prices and became ruble millionaires...only to have a currency reset after the war and lose it all...i dont feel sorry for anyone who would price gouge when people are eating their own shoes...and friends. Insanity.
 
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#268
#268
Velo Vol said:
Very surprising that a VN discussion of an Asian dispute immediately jumped to domestic U.S. politics.

It's as if hot D vs. R takes are the only way some people know how to process anything that happens in the world.
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It's like a mental illness.
 
#270
#270
Velo Vol said:
That case isn't clear on how WWI started.
Wow. I wonder what the punishment was?
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Control and access to resources. Why did everyone need allies? Look at the world map after the war. Germany lost a lot of its overseas colonies.
 
#271
#271
Velo Vol said:
If you want to get into a historical morass review the supposed reasons for World War I.
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I must confess WWI isn't a period I've really researched in-depth but I'd highly recommend Dan Carlin's Blueprint to Armageddon series. They are pretty lengthy but it is a great dive into the conflict. Much like World War II, I don't the first was ever avoidable.
 
#272
#272
VolStrom said:
This is actually funny. Anything the Russians build is generally a piece of crap. Now they are leasing a piece of crap to India for money that India doesn't have, for something they don't need.
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Let me ask you something. What country in recent history has had a better first hand look at both Russian and American weaponry than Turkey?

If Russia really does offer POS technology, then why is Turkey, which I'm sure has witnessed both countries' best systems in action in Syria, even considering purchasing SU-400s?
 
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#273
#273
LouderVol said:
Control and access to resources. Why did everyone need allies? Look at the world map after the war. Germany lost a lot of its overseas colonies.
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The alliances are what caused things to spiral out of control. But the proximate cause of the war was Austria-Hungry declaring war on Serbia, largely because it believed Serbs were trying to stoke up ethnic tensions in its empire.

That's not a money/resource dispute.
 
#274
#274
Velo Vol said:
The alliances are what caused things to spiral out of control. But the proximate cause of the war was Austria-Hungry declaring war on Serbia, largely because it believed Serbs were trying to stoke up ethnic tensions in its empire.

That's not a money/resource dispute.
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no one would have cared. minor nations had fought before with major allies. The Brits/Ottomans/French and Russians had fought not long before WWI. Franco Prussian War.

you aren't dragging the big boys in unless they have something to gain.
 
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