Is Pope Francis the false prophet?

[Ashevolle]

Oh, you edited.

Feeble attempts? Likely? You're still doubling down on showing your ignorance? So, you'll come back here with a 66 volume commentary on the Bible and grade the logic attempts of the Bible?

One would think you'd get tired of displaying your unabashed ignorance on the subject.

I am not worried about being wrong in the pursuit of knowledge, because I am keen to learn. If I make a mistake, I take as a part of being human. I conceded the point, yet you're doggedly more interested in dressing me down than discussing the merits of your beliefs. I'd rather debate someone who will eventually address the substance of things rather than the forms of how substance should be addressed.

 

[Ashevolle]

Now, with your utter ignorance displayed...



I absolutely and proudly believe in miracles.

Ok, how do miracles work? How did Jesus walk on water, for instance?

 

[Orange_Crush]

I am not worried about being wrong in the pursuit of knowledge, because I am keen to learn. If I make a mistake, I take as a part of being human. I conceded the point, yet you're doggedly more interested in dressing me down than discussing the merits of your beliefs. I'd rather debate someone who will eventually address the substance of things rather than the forms of how substance should be addressed.

I'm absolutely interested in dressing down your ignorance, which is dressed up as arrogance. If you want to be treated with anything better than that, perhaps you should work on how you approach people.

And if you were truly interested in a pursuit of knowledge, and your growth in it, you'd study the subject as opposed to making stupid assumptions about it and parroting those stupid assumptions for the purpose of interrupting others.

Now, as I said... I proudly believe in miracles. And...?

 

[Orange_Crush]

Ok, how do miracles work? How did Jesus walk on water, for instance?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you looking for a formula? Specifics?

He walked on water because He is God and has power over the laws of physics. Are you looking for a mechanism?

 

[Ashevolle]

I'm absolutely interested in dressing down your ignorance, which is dressed up as arrogance. If you want to be treated with anything better than that, perhaps you should work on how you approach people.

And if you were truly interested in a pursuit of knowledge, and your growth in it, you'd study the subject as opposed to making stupid assumptions about it and parroting those stupid assumptions for the purpose of interrupting others.

Now, as I said... I proudly believe in miracles. And...?

How do miracles work? Logically speaking, can you explain their mechanism?

 

[Ashevolle]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you looking for a formula? Specifics?

He walked on water because He is God and has power over the laws of physics. Are you looking for a mechanism?

Yes, if logic is important, which it seems you truly believe, would logic not be important in all questions? Or do miracles get a pass on logic?

 

[Orange_Crush]

How do miracles work? Logically speaking, can you explain their mechanism?

Probably not. Should I be able to?

 

[Orange_Crush]

Yes, if logic is important, which it seems you truly believe, would logic not be important in all questions? Or do miracles get a pass on logic?

Sure. Why would logic dictate that I be able to explain the mechanism of something to believe that it exists and is possible? That's an irrational leap.

When I was 16, I couldn't explain the mechanism of an internal combustion engine, but I believed that they could drive me to school.

 

[Orange_Crush]

How do miracles work? Logically speaking, can you explain their mechanism?

I'm being serious here. You do know what logic is, don't you?

 

[Ashevolle]

Probably not. Should I be able to?

Does the fact that God is unbounded by logic not offend you? You seem to care a great deal for whether something is logical or not. Where I have offended logic, you've called me arrogant. Do the rules not also apply to God?

 

[Ashevolle]

Sure. Why would logic dictate that I be able to explain the mechanism of something to believe that it exists and is possible? That's an irrational leap.

When I was 16, I couldn't explain the mechanism of an internal combustion engine, but I believed that they could drive me to school.

But an engine can be reverse engineered. Someone else could explain how it works and even help you build one. But the same cannot be said of a miracle. In fact, I cannot even think of a single example of an undisputed miracle having happened. Is there a single thing that has happened in the world that is indisputably a miracle? No one rationally disputes the existence of an internal combustion engine.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Does the fact that God is unbounded by logic not offend you? You seem to care a great deal for whether something is logical or not. Where I have offended logic, you've called me arrogant. Do the rules not also apply to God?

How is God unbound by logic?

Tell me how it's illogical/irrational to believe that the God who created the laws of Physics could be unbound by the laws of physics?

I'll ask again... You do know what logic is, right? Do you think that logic is the science of everything--the answer to every question?

I'll ask you, to show the irrational nature of your criticism:

Do you believe in gravity? Explain the specific mechanisms of how gravity works.

You can't. Not even the greatest scientists can. And yet it's not illogical to believe in gravity.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Years ago when I first came to the PF, I would type out my novels arguing about these things with folks that mocked God...I just do not have it in me anymore. Thankfully there are folks here with better knowledge of scripture..and in O.C.s case also a seasoned debater with practice avoiding logical fallacies, calling them out, and generally making the mockery look stupid. Without getting mad.

I have often been honest here and spoken both of my youth when I was anything BUT a Christian, and confessed that I still struggle daily with sin having been saved now for 17 years. I try to not be judgmental of people, knowing of my own flaws and sin. I have to say though, that it is crazy to see that it is nearly always people who state that they do not believe in God, and are not Christians, that want to start arguments about the Bible.

From a logical standpoint... it seems to me that a person who at best has maybe read through all (doubtful) or most of the Bible once, likely with a mindset of disbelief and prideful mockery, or often has not ever read the book...only pieces here and there...this person is automatically arguing from ignorance while attacking the beliefs of folks who have spent many years intently studying the Bible over and over again. People who pray and gather themselves mentally each time before studying, asking God to speak to them and reveal even more of Himself and His word THIS time than the last time they read the same verses. Which, by the way, is a very effective path to deeper understanding of the Word in hand.

I have wondered, do these same folks take their car to the mechanic when it falters to be diagnosed, then smugly argue with the mechanic and tell him that they know MUCH better how cars work than he does? Do they hire Realtors when they need a house, then fire them telling them that THEY know where to find the perfect house, and how to do the contracts, etc to purchase the house....much better than a Realtor does.

No? That we be stupidly prideful, and totally illogical you say??? What kind of idiot would do those things you say??

It is the EXACT same thing as getting in a thread on VN and arguing about what the Bible says with an ordained preacher with a degree in theology. A man who not only went to college and majored in Biblical Christianity , but then gave his life to spreading the Christian faith, studying and TEACHING the Bible both in Sunday School and from the pulpit 3 times a week minimum....

That EXACT thing just happened, repeatedly and by multiple folks....right here in this thread. It happens in the PF here all the time. It always turns out the same way...of course. The way an argument from ignorance will always turn out against someone who has devoted their entire LIFE to knowing and teaching the subject.

I prefer to ask questions of the people more knowledgeable than me about things, that I might increase my own understanding...rather than arguing with them.

 

[Orange_Crush]

But an engine can be reverse engineered. Someone else could explain how it works and even help you build one. But the same cannot be said of a miracle. In fact, I cannot even think of a single example of an undisputed miracle having happened. Is there a single thing that has happened in the world that is indisputably a miracle? No one rationally disputes the existence of an internal combustion engine.

There have been innumerable claims of miracles. You're saying that logic dictates that:

1: Something must be explainable before it can be true/exist?

2: Everyone must believe a claim before it can be true?

Are those your final logical propositions? Because it'll take me about 30 seconds to offer disproofs.

 

[Ashevolle]

How is God unbound by logic?

Tell me how it's illogical/irrational to believe that the God who created the laws of Physics could be unbound by the laws of physics?

I'll ask again... You do know what logic is, right? Do you think that logic is the science of everything--the answer to every question?

I'll ask you, to show the irrational nature of your criticism:

Do you believe in gravity? Explain the specific mechanisms of how gravity works.

You can't. Not even the greatest scientists can. And yet it's not illogical to believe in gravity.

Gravity can be observed and measured. We've even figured out how to predict how it will act on two objects in the future. Sure there is more still to learn. God cannot be observed or measured. So, it can reasonably be argued that God may not exist. Faith is required to bridge the gap. Gravity seems a poor comparison for the supernatural.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Gravity can be observed and measured. We've even figured out how to predict how it will act on two objects in the future. Sure there is more still to learn. God cannot be observed or measured. So, it can reasonably be argued that God may not exist. Faith is required to bridge the gap. Gravity seems a poor comparison for the supernatural.

Miracles can be observed and measured. By definition, that's what'd make it a miracle.

Lots of things exist as reality without being predictable. This discussion, for instance.

Sure faith is required to bridge the gap. That's not singular to the supernatural. You live by more faith than you want to admit, I suspect--even when it comes to logic and rationality. You live by utter, blind, untestable faith that your perceptions align with reality outside of yourself, and you can never test that. As a matter of fact, believing yourself the product of blind chance, I'm not sure why you should expect that your perceptions DO align with reality outside of yourself.

Yet here you are, claiming to measure gravity and perceive reality well enough to have never perceived a miracle.

You're still struggling to make your argument.

 

[Ashevolle]

Miracles can be observed and measured. By definition, that's what'd make it a miracle.

Lots of things exist as reality without being predictable. This discussion, for instance.

Sure faith is required to bridge the gap. That's not singular to the supernatural. You live by more faith than you want to admit, I suspect--even when it comes to logic and rationality. You live by utter, blind, untestable faith that your perceptions align with reality outside of yourself, and you can never test that. As a matter of fact, believing yourself the product of blind chance, I'm not sure why you should expect that your perceptions DO align with reality outside of yourself.

Yet here you are, claiming to measure gravity and perceive reality well enough to have never perceived a miracle.

You're still struggling to make your argument.

As an agnostic, what argument am I making? I'm curious about and inquiring where logic is and is not as important to your beliefs.

 

[Orange_Crush]

As an agnostic, what argument am I making?

That it's illogical (irrational) for me to believe in miracles. You've been blatant about it.

I still wonder if you know what logic is, though.

 

[Ashevolle]

That it's illogical (irrational) for me to believe in miracles. You've been blatant about it.

I still wonder if you know what logic is, though.

Is it not illogical to believe in miracles? It seems that the only proof is in the Bible. The Bible is only written words. Words can be lies. Would you not agree that the evidence is scant to support the existence of miracles?

 

[Orange_Crush]

Is it not illogical to believe in miracles? It seems that the only proof is in the Bible. The Bible is only written words. Words can be lies. Would you not agree that the evidence is scant to support the existence of miracles?

You tell me. You seem a bit desperate to show that belief in miracles is illogical, but you've failed to do so.

No. Belief in miracles is neither illogical, nor irrational. If you want to show them as such, you need to work harder.

 

[Ashevolle]

You tell me. You seem a bit desperate to show that belief in miracles is illogical, but you've failed to do so.

No. Belief in miracles is neither illogical, nor irrational. If you want to show them as such, you need to work harder.

I have no interest in disproving the existence of miracles or God because I cannot. I am interested in hearing compelling reasons that people may have for the supposition that God and miracles do exist, because I am dubious. If you aren't interested in giving those reasons I won't press.

Regarding my earlier off-putting behavior, I apologize. I do have a trollish approach to the politics forum because it's generally a caustic place.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Yes, if logic is important, which it seems you truly believe, would logic not be important in all questions? Or do miracles get a pass on logic?

Here's the argument you're struggling to flesh out. You've tried several tactics to show belief in miracles as irrational. None have stuck. Have you gotten bored yet? Or shall we keep dancing?

I'll help you. Philosophy is the pursuit of truth. Logic--in perhaps its simplest explanation--is the pursuit of truth statements, or said another way, a judgment of claims. A logical argument is constructed as a list of premises that support a conclusion. These often follow one or more first principles--things that can't be proven, but are either accepted or not accepted as necessary truths.

So, the problem you and I will have are that we will by definition not agree on first principles. These are the things we're willing to take on faith to support arguments that come from them.

The law of non-contradiction is an agree first principle in Western culture. Something can't both be and not be simultaneously, and in the same context. Logical arguments can flow from that.

Is there a God? Well, you and I won't agree on that, so we'll be unable to fully judge arguments until we do. That doesn't make the the following statements illogical or irrational. It just means I won;t be able to prove my beliefs. You won;t be able to disprove my beliefs.

Now, my belief in miracles. If I believe in a creative, personal, relational, all-powerful God, then of course I can logically believe in miracles. It flows naturally from the belief. IT would be illogical to say that they are impossible.

And until you disprove the existence of that Being, it's illogical for you to claim that they are impossible. That's why I can proudly proclaim a belief in miracles without having to worry about this line of discussion.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I have no interest in disproving the existence of miracles or God because I cannot. I am interested in hearing compelling reasons that people may have for the supposition that God and miracles do exist, because I am dubious. If you aren't interested in giving those reasons I won't press.

Regarding my earlier off-putting behavior, I apologize. I do have a trollish approach to the politics forum because it's generally a caustic place.

If you are interested, I can recommend what I believe to be good starting points to read.

For me, God answers more questions than anything else. The Big Questions that I believe every worldview must answer. When I did that test, Monotheism came out on top. Just add to that personal experiences that have reinforced my beliefs.

I found too many internal contradictions to other worldviews.

I would recommend "The Universe Next Door". I believe it to be an incredibly good, accessible primer on such a test of worldview consistency.


ETA: I would also recommend lots of Francis Schaeffer and almost everything Nancy Pearcey has published. After The Unvierse Next Door, pick up a copy of Finding Truth. If we can find a way to privately share deets, I'll buy the books and mail them to you

 

[Orange_Crush]

@Ashevolle see my update above. I mean it. The books are on me if we can work it out.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Regarding my earlier off-putting behavior, I apologize. I do have a trollish approach to the politics forum because it's generally a caustic place.

And if my responses were too severe, I genuinely and humbly apologize. You are correct that the caustic atmosphere in the PF has a way of negatively reetting our barometer of acceptable behavior.

I beg your pardon.