Is UT really that bad???

[Vercingetorix]

That's what this fanbase has morphed into over the past 7-9yrs...the University of Low Expectations.

Part of our class this year was from the No.1 overall class in 05 IIRC....we had a Top 10 class last year and a Top 5 this year. A coach like Wittingham or Patterson could go hog wild with that much talent. I am just amazed at how many fans now are selling this program short...an willing to rummage through the dipsy dumpster for a HC.

Say..that sa'mmich has still got some meat on it. Ooohh!

Do you remember when Carroll left USC, and everybody was talking about how any good coach would be an idiot to take the USC job because they were about to be on heavy probation?

Whoever took the Tennessee job was going to be doing the exact same thing. I'm not going to run through the numbers again, but it's going to take the new coach years to get us back up to 85 scholarship players. So whoever took this job was going to be battling Meyer and Saban every year, from a disadvantaged position, and for a fanbase that would probably only give him three years to start winning against them. Running through the T is awesome and all, but it's easy to see why this may not be a situation right now that you'd be willing to risk your coaching career on.

Hamilton engaged both Whittingham and Patterson. It's just dumb to assume that the reason he failed to hire either of them was because he screwed it up, rather than that they just didn't want to come to Tennessee right now. Based on what he's reportedly paying Dooley, he clearly wasn't just being cheap about it.

 

[utmba93]

We're down 20 scholarship players to begin with. Our recruiting class, regardless of who we hired, would be pretty tenuous. The new coach would have very little time to try to salvage the class and go find guys to replace the ones who leave. So that puts the new coach three years back, talent wise, while playing in the toughest conference in the country and for a fanbase that is only going to give him two or three years to succeed.

This job is a shiat sandwich right now. That's why Hamilton had to go so far down the line to find somebody willing to take a bite.

That's a good argument for why we needed to pay whatever it took to get out of this crap. If we didn't have the money to do that, then I understand. But folks keep saying money is no issue. I find that hard to believe as well, but I don't know what figures we were using.

It also seems the current staff problem was one we created as we agreed to all of their contracts. Sure, Kiffin screwed us, but that's the purpose of the contracts themselves (e.g. to avoid that outcome). Those contracts are on the AD as well and they were sunk costs going into this hire.

Also, if we approached proven coaches with constraints on both money and staff, that only made our already challenging position that much more difficult.

In the end, of course, I hope CDD can pull us out of this, but he has got one helluva challenge. I admire him for taking it, but I think he was in a career pinch at LA Tech. If he pulls us out, there's no way we can compete with what UGA will throw at a Dooley to get him there. Of course, I'm fine with that because it means our program is fixed.

I do think he's got some potential to pull this off, but it will easily be the biggest challenge of his professional career.

 

[orangepeel]

it all comes down to just being an extremely bad time of the year to start a coaching search. not many big name coaches are going to want to leave their team when they've got a responsibility for keeping things in order 3 weeks before national signing day. i mean, who would do that........

The timing could not have been any worse.

 

[bop_rocco]

.

 

[hmanvolfan]

Holy cat crap Batman.

 

[hmanvolfan]

Maybe the site should set an IQ test before allowing posters to author a new thread.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Can you please show some evidence that we were turned down? I'm sick of hearing that. They can't accept what Hamilton doesn't offer.

For example, if Hamilton has his search staff ask Wittingham what sort of salary it would take to interest him in the job...and he tells Hammy $4mill...just like Saban and Meyer...and then hammy thinks he can swing a decent candidate for half that...that's not being turned down outright. That's an AD trying to find the best deal he can get....we don't need to be shopping for a deal. We need to identify our most qualified candidates and expend EVERY effort to bring them in...ala Saban.

You're literally just making stuff up and then being angry at Hamilton about it.

The X factor here is the assistant coaches. Tennessee is still on the hook for every one of these guys, most (all?) of whom have two-year contracts. If you start talking about spending $4m/yr to bring in a guy like Whittingham, and then you have to spend another $2m to pay off all the assistants you already have on staff, and then you have to spend another $2m to hire Whittingham's assistants, and meanwhile you're still paying Fulmer's buyout, then suddenly you're getting into money that even Tennessee cannot necessarily afford. It's entirely possible that Dooley ended up being the guy because he was the only one willing to consider using the highly paid, NFL-quality assistants already on staff that we all loved so much a week ago.

Now if you want to be angry at Hamilton because he cannot crap out endless amounts of money to pay all these coaches, that's another issue.

 

[TENNaciousUTfan]

In some ways, yes, in some ways no.

Tennessee is a great place to coach, it has great fan support and a tradition rivaled by few other programs.

It's also a place with a lot of challenges. Tennessee high school football isn't all that good. A coach at Alabama, Georgia, LSU or Florida can have a really good team just by getting the best players in their backyard. That doesn't work at Tennessee. You try that strategy at UT, and you've got MTSU's talent. And you'll get your butt kicked.

A coach at Tennessee has to recruit nationally and he has to be able to consistently beat other schools for out-of-state talent. Phil Fulmer's downfall was simply that he got to a point where he wasn't able to do this enough.

Another reason some coaches won't come to UT is simply because we're in the SEC. The best way to get a crack at the national championship is to go undefeated. To go undefeated at Tennessee, you have to beat Alabama and Florida. Some guys welcome the challenge, but a lot of others are just looking for the path of least resistance.

That's a erroneous argument...about TN having such a hard time recruiting.
We're geographically a smaller state and with a lower population, however, we border 7 different states...most of which are within a few hours drive.

So, it's closer to drive to Knoxville from the Atlanta area than from Orlando to Tallahasse...or LA to Palm Springs...or Austin to Amarillo or Waco.

So, these "Backyard" comments are largely bunk. It's 8hrs from Miami to Tallahassee. The equivalent from Knoxville would be Chicago or Pittsburgh. Are they, then in our back yard? Huh? Didn't hear you...No they aren't.

So then...the only issue that remains is to overcome is in-state loyalties. Winning has a mysterious way off doing just that. So, when people moan about us having to recruit nationally...we pick off a huge amount of our classes within the same proximities as these other states do. That's why we try to feast on GA, NC, VA, SC, AL and KY areas...they are all within a few hours drive in most cases.

 

[TENNaciousUTfan]

You're literally just making stuff up and then being angry at Hamilton about it.

The X factor here is the assistant coaches. Tennessee is still on the hook for every one of these guys, most (all?) of whom have two-year contracts. If you start talking about spending $4m/yr to bring in a guy like Whittingham, and then you have to spend another $2m to pay off all the assistants you already have on staff, and then you have to spend another $2m to hire Whittingham's assistants, and meanwhile you're still paying Fulmer's buyout, then suddenly you're getting into money that even Tennessee cannot necessarily afford. It's entirely possible that Dooley ended up being the guy because he was the only one willing to consider using the highly paid, NFL-quality assistants already on staff that we all loved so much a week ago.

Now if you want to be angry at Hamilton because he cannot crap out endless amounts of money to pay all these coaches, that's another issue.

Kiffin and Orgeron's buyout soak up 80% of their contracts...so it's small potatoes compared to what you lose by hiring no name, losing record coaches and have disappointing turnout to games and declining merchandise/licensing revenues. What's more, is every coach evaluates the current staff...and if they are objective, they keep the one's they like and replace the one's they want to. I think they would likely hold onto a few as it stands, but I don't see how Hamilton could make that an issue, considering they were part of a staff that was getting it done.

 

[hmanvolfan]

Holy cow dude.

 

[tabrams]

he had an 8-5 season with several of those wins being due to a good OC in Malzahn. Chizik is a fraud and Auburn will be pretty much irrelevant as long as he's in charge.

tennessee's hire today was roughly the equivalent of auburn giving a contract to the former iowa st head coach last offseason.

I don't know why you keep responding to my posts, DUCK! haha....... is Chizik a fraud?? I hope so, but I would have gladly taken 8-5 with a bowl win, over 7-6....... and that's half the point, we surround this guy with great assistants, go recruit, and tear it up! :rock:

 

[Vercingetorix]

That's a good argument for why we needed to pay whatever it took to get out of this crap. If we didn't have the money to do that, then I understand. But folks keep saying money is no issue. I find that hard to believe as well, but I don't know what figures we were using.

It also seems the current staff problem was one we created as we agreed to all of their contracts. Sure, Kiffin screwed us, but that's the purpose of the contracts themselves (e.g. to avoid that outcome). Those contracts are on the AD as well and they were sunk costs going into this hire.

Also, if we approached proven coaches with constraints on both money and staff, that only made our already challenging position that much more difficult.

In the end, of course, I hope CDD can pull us out of this, but he has got one helluva challenge. I admire him for taking it, but I think he was in a career pinch at LA Tech. If he pulls us out, there's no way we can compete with what UGA will throw at a Dooley to get him there. Of course, I'm fine with that because it means our program is fixed.

I do think he's got some potential to pull this off, but it will easily be the biggest challenge of his professional career.

Everybody sitting in his living room in his pajamas drinking a beer (as I am right now, as a matter of fact) can say that "money is no issue," but that's crap. Money is always an issue. Money is always THE issue. Hamilton does not have access to unlimited money.

I think the contracts to the existing assistants have played a giant role in all this. If they broke negotiations with Cutcliffe, then surely they came up with some of these other guys. We probably had to go all the way down to LA Tech just to find somebody who'd be willing to use the remnants of the so called all-star coaching staff rather than who they already had.

 

[duckman398686]

had we played northwestern in the outback bowl we would have likely been 8-5 too. i hope i'm wrong about dooley and would gladly eat crow if he turns our being a great hire. but i've just been extremely pessimistic the last few days and hiring a guy who's only head coaching experience is 3 years at la tech with an overall losing record isn't helping any.

 

[volsof09]

Can you please show some evidence that we were turned down? I'm sick of hearing that. They can't accept what Hamilton doesn't offer.

For example, if Hamilton has his search staff ask Wittingham what sort of salary it would take to interest him in the job...and he tells Hammy $4mill...just like Saban and Meyer...and then hamm y thinks he can swing a decent candidate for half that...that's not being turned down outright. That's an AD trying to find the best deal he can get....we don't need to be shopping for a deal. We need to identify our most qualified candidates and expend EVERY effort to bring them in...ala Saban.

In all reality we did get turned if they decided that they wanted more money then we got turned downed for money reasons.Or coaching staff reasons.C'mon can you please use your brain cells or you must be one of those 13 year olds on here.

 

[tabrams]

had we played northwestern in the outback bowl we would have likely been 8-5 too. i hope i'm wrong about dooley and would gladly eat crow if he turns our being a great hire. but i've just been extremely pessimistic the last few days and hiring a guy who's only head coaching experience is 3 years at la tech with an overall losing record isn't helping any.

yeah, I know what you're sayin' Duck, but you said earlier that it's a terrible time for a hire....... and we don't want a washed-up Retread like Cutcliffe coming here with Foolmer's yahoo's in tow.......that would mean Hammy would get canned and the Foolmerites get to dominate K-ville, sort of like Mordor taking over.........lol:

So, all in all, it's an awesome hire......Kiffy-wonder proved that you don't have to be a good coach to have a good team if you have good assistants, and really he got a free pass on at least 4 games.......and Monte was terrible against the spread all year (except UF)

 

[utmba93]

Everybody sitting in his living room in his pajamas drinking a beer (as I am right now, as a matter of fact) can say that "money is no issue," but that's crap. Money is always an issue. Money is always THE issue. Hamilton does not have access to unlimited money.

I think the contracts to the existing assistants have played a giant role in all this. If they broke negotiations with Cutcliffe, then surely they came up with some of these other guys. We probably had to go all the way down to LA Tech just to find somebody who'd be willing to use the remnants of the so called all-star coaching staff rather than who they already had.

That makes sense. In the end, so much of this boils down to Kiffin doing something that was very unlikely that shafted us for years.

In hindsight, if we knew how it was going to turn out as it has, skipping the search and promoting Kippy might have been our best short term solution. But, I know hindsight is 20/20. And, even then, I'm sure there would have been a lot of upset Vol fans any way this went.

I'm glad we get the pajamas and beer role on this(cheers!), but it really sux to see this happen to the program.

 

[VolsRule]

Fulmer and kiffin hurt the school's reputation and credibility, forcing them to go low to get a coach.

 

[vol_in_ar]

17-20? That's the best that the school could get? This is a pretty sad day when UT is taking coaches from La Tech with losing records.....

that's the best Hambone could do
which is Sad
Given our facilities, fan base, money

 

[MOOOOONEY]

I keep hearing pay some big name coach, who?

Jon Gruden- I am sure if gruden was such a great coach then daniel snyder owner of the redskins would have paid him 10 million a year if thats what it took to hire him, but lets look at the facts he has not coached college football since 1991, do you really think he wants to be on the road recruiting 6 months a year?

Lovie Smith- about to be fired by the bears and also has a 10 million dollar buyout, has not coached college football in 15 years, recruiting?

Tony Dungy- yep he would come to TN b/c Peyton asked him to.

Bill Cowher- has never coached college football in his life, im sure he wants to deal with recruiting and 18 year old kids, yep MH should have hired that superbowl winning coach, I just know he would have come b/c he owns property in Tennessee.

Kyle Whittingham- consistant top 50 recruiting classes has done real well in the MWC, has not coached a BCS school and has never recruited for a BCS school, runs the spread, yeah yeah UM was the same but he went to FL doesnt need to leave his backyard to get a top 5 class, plus zook left him loaded with talent.

Garry Patterson- I think he could have been a solid coach

 

[majic73]

Kyle Whittingham- consistant top 50 recruiting classes has done real well in the MWC, has not coached a BCS school and has never recruited for a BCS school, runs the spread, yeah yeah UM was the same but he went to FL doesnt need to leave his backyard to get a top 5 class, plus zook left him loaded with talent.


appears as though he could beat a BCS school with his top 50 recruiting class . It would have been fitting for the last coach to beat Alabama to role on into K town.
The spread takes some of the burden off recruiting ...thats why every poedunk college and high school class runs it ...it neutralizes speed by spreading the field and creates more running gaps.

 

[MOOOOONEY]

Kyle Whittingham- consistant top 50 recruiting classes has done real well in the MWC, has not coached a BCS school and has never recruited for a BCS school, runs the spread, yeah yeah UM was the same but he went to FL doesnt need to leave his backyard to get a top 5 class, plus zook left him loaded with talent.


appears as though he could beat a BCS school with his top 50 recruiting class . It would have been fitting for the last coach to beat Alabama to role on into K town.
The spread takes some of the burden off recruiting ...thats why every poedunk college and high school class runs it ...it neutralizes speed by spreading the field and creates more running gaps.

good points but bama just lost the seccg if they had won they would have been playing for nc so kind of a let down, um has top 5 talent so does bama, lsu and I would say without looking 9 or 10 teams out of the sec are getting top 40 classes, I am saying KW has no connections to the south but who is to say he could not put a good staff together and do good recruiting the south and do you not think fl is going to have a huge dropff with tt gone? give tt credit he was tough and probably the greatest spread QB to ever play the game but I dont see another qb taking the punishment tt took and lasting a whole season in the sec it just wont happen, so i will take my top 10 classes and pro style offense and see what happens

 

[VolsRule]

Whittingham's utah team blew out bama in the sugar bowl last year.

 

[WA_Vol]

I'm struggling with the fact that the HC at Air Force, Utah, Duke, and TCU all turned UT down. Would have easily doubled their salary. I really don't know what to make of it.

 

[WA_Vol]

I can't believe these guys want to hide in their weak conferences and weak schedules and pretend to be legtiimate BCS teams at the end of the year. I hate the BCS bowl system.

 

[WA_Vol]

I keep hearing pay some big name coach, who?

Jon Gruden- I am sure if gruden was such a great coach then daniel snyder owner of the redskins would have paid him 10 million a year if thats what it took to hire him, but lets look at the facts he has not coached college football since 1991, do you really think he wants to be on the road recruiting 6 months a year?

Lovie Smith- about to be fired by the bears and also has a 10 million dollar buyout, has not coached college football in 15 years, recruiting?

Tony Dungy- yep he would come to TN b/c Peyton asked him to.

Bill Cowher- has never coached college football in his life, im sure he wants to deal with recruiting and 18 year old kids, yep MH should have hired that superbowl winning coach, I just know he would have come b/c he owns property in Tennessee.

Kyle Whittingham- consistant top 50 recruiting classes has done real well in the MWC, has not coached a BCS school and has never recruited for a BCS school, runs the spread, yeah yeah UM was the same but he went to FL doesnt need to leave his backyard to get a top 5 class, plus zook left him loaded with talent.

Garry Patterson- I think he could have been a solid coach

They were all approached and turned UT down.