Islam, is it a religion of peace or war?

#984
#984
If anyone as ever wondered why I call democrats/socialists and even the fraud “libertarians” here worthless scum, just look at the silence from them on the video. Look at their silence on the crimes committed by illegals here (I know that’s a different topic/thread) Don’t let them fool you
 
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#986
#986
excerpt from op

AshG said:
A point to ponder is the political connection. Christianity started with an outsider, hated by the government of His time It took hundreds of years for the church to gain a strong foothold even advising governments. In Islam, Mohammed was the government. He was the leader, the Caliph; Islam began its existence in control of things. It's all they've ever known. It's baked right into the religion.

Around the twelfth century, after we had recovered from the Dark Ages and had gleaned back the knowledge saved for us by the people we were about to go to war with, after Ash'arism had taken ....
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Re: Christianity started with an outsider, hated by the government of His time It took hundreds of years for the church to gain a strong foothold even advising governments.

I'm playng catchup on this forum, but ^ That's ^ not correct, 3-fold --

a. "Christianity started with an outsider" >> not true, as Jesus was not an "outsider" << he was Jewish, of the Tribe of Judah (so, most definitely, he was in "insider" << He was one of them << Hebrews 7:14, "For it is evident that our Lord has sprung out of Judah," (nasb) / Matthew 1: "In all, then, there were fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.").

b. "hated by the government of His time" >> not true << in fact, the "government" deemed Him innocent (3X, Pilate confirmed "I find no fault in Him" // "“You take Him and judge Him by your own law, ... I find no basis for a charge against Him" << John 18 ).

So, it was his people / his own, who hated him (of course NOT every Jewish person hated him (not Mary, His mother ; Not Peter and the Apostles etc ; obviously, not every Jew hated Him).

John 18
And Pilate said to the Jews, “Here is your King!”
At this, they shouted, “Away with Him! Away with Him! Crucify Him!”
“Shall I crucify your King?” Pilate asked.
“We have no king but Caesar,” replied the chief priests.



c. "It took hundreds of years for the church to gain a strong foothold" >> not true, in it's primal form ("strong foothold"), as the church, per Acts 2, started with 3000 + 120 + 12 Jewish persons / "men of Israel" << that's 3000+ persons who believe in Jesus as Messiah (tell us then: how many "Jewish" persons lived in Jerusalem at the time of Acts 2 (so, that would be a percentage, of 3000/?number total) << so in fact, it can be argued that the church gained a strong foothold within approx 41 days of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ of Nazareth (Messiah). Note: "gained a stronghold" = Belief/Faith in Messiah.

On top of this, Paul and Barnabas/Timothy were establishing "Christian" "churches" all over the area of then-Asia << the church was gaining a strong foothold" of "believers" within 100 years of the Cross (anyway, the NT confirms that not everyone will come to the Faith of Messiah Jesus of Nazareth, so "strong foothold" (in the sense of belief and following) is not even a requirement << "narrow is the way" but "the door is open for all" ).

Remember, Jesus already told Pilate ("the government of His time") that "My kingdom is not of this world. ... but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm" (John 18:36, nasb).
 
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#987
#987
UT-Rex said:
Re: Christianity started with an outsider, hated by the government of His time It took hundreds of years for the church to gain a strong foothold even advising governments.

I'm playng catchup on this forum, but ^ That's ^ not correct..."Christianity started with an outsider" >> not true, as Jesus was not an "outsider" << he was Jewish, of the Tribe of Judah (so, most definitely, he was in "insider" << He was one of them << Hebrews 7:14, "For it is evident that our Lord has sprung out of Judah," (nasb) / Matthew 1: "In all, then, there were fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.").
Click to expand...

Jesus was an outsider. There is nothing about Him or His teachings that indicate he was an "insider."He was poor, He wasn't a Pharisee or a Saducee nor was He a tax collector or politician. If you read the Beatitudes, Jesus said He came for outsiders...the poor, the meek, the downtrodden. His own people condemned him to death. Jesus and his followers were largely people who existed on the fringe of society.
 
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#991
#991
AshG said:
A point to ponder is the political connection. Christianity started with an outsider,
Click to expand...

UT-Rex said:
Re: Christianity started with an outsider, hated by the government of His time It took hundreds of years for the church to gain a strong foothold even advising governments.

a. "Christianity started with an outsider" >> not true, as Jesus was not an "outsider" << he was Jewish, of the Tribe of Judah (so, most definitely, he was in "insider" << He was one of them << Hebrews 7:14, "For it is evident that our Lord has sprung out of Judah," (nasb) / Matthew 1: "In all, then, there were fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.").
Click to expand...

Purple Tiger said:
Just so you know, I have a Masters in Divinity. What kind of graduate theological education do you have? I don't say that to brag but to rebut your misguided belief I am lacking in Biblical, theological or historical knowledge. If I challenge your thoughts/beliefs, then answer that challenge like a mature Christian instead trying to belittle someone who may actually know more and think differently than you.
Click to expand...

Purple Tiger said:
Jesus was an outsider. There is nothing about Him or His teachings that indicate he was an "insider."He was poor, He wasn't a Pharisee or a Saducee nor was He a tax collector or politician. If you read the Beatitudes, Jesus said He came for outsiders...the poor, the meek, the downtrodden. His own people condemned him to death. Jesus and his followers were largely people who existed on the fringe of society.
Click to expand...

I realize you have a Masters in Divinity, and I see what you're trying to say, yet,

the point is: Jesus was Jewish (NOT non-Jewish (where non-Jewish/Gentile would be the measuring stick in the context of "outsider"), and Christianity (The Church) started among Jews/"men of Israel" (Acts 2) in Jerusalem << IE the church was not started by outsiders (it started as deep within the Jewish community as you could get). As a simple fact: Paul and Jesus taught in the synagogues, AND at The Temple (<< explain to us: how much closer "inside" can one get, than in that midst?). And, Paul is definitely included in the context of "Christianity started" (I realize you'll try to argue otherwise).

Acts 17:2, "they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. "This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah," he said."

NOT an "outsider" >> Phil 3:4, "though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;"

Tell us: how could an "outsider" be teaching in the synagogue?


So, Paul was not an outsider (he was a Pharisee) ; Timothy and Barnabas were not outsiders (show otherwise) ; the 12 Apostles were not outsiders (Peter et al / they were normal Jews of the day (as far as I know << so it's up to you to show otherwise)) ; and ultimately, Jesus was not an "outsider."

As for Jesus (likely, the subject of "Christianity was started with an outsider) --

a. At Age 12, Jesus was studying with the religious leaders at the temple -- Luke 2: After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.

Tell us, based on your Masters degree: how well would an "outsider" be accepted in the temple courts, as described ^?

b. At around 30-33, Jesus is found at the temple again -- John 2:15, "So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables."

Tell us: how could an "outsider" b doing this activity in the temple courts, as described ^ ?

Now, that the Jews asked him this, shows that He was not an "outsider" -- "The Jews then responded to him, "What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"

v23 -- "While He was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the signs He was doing and believed in His name." You still want to attempt to tell us he was an "outsider"?

c. So, an "outsider" teaching at the temple, each day ?

See this, Luke 21:37, "Each day Jesus was teaching at the temple, and each evening he went out to spend the night on the hill called the Mount of Olives," (niv).

d. Now, tell us in you logic, how this possibly describes an "outsider" --

John 18:19
Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about His disciples and His teaching.
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus answered. “I always taught in the synagogues and at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. Why are you asking Me? Ask those who heard My message. Surely they know what I said.”
 
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#992
#992
AshG said:
A point to ponder is the political connection. Christianity started with an outsider,
Click to expand...

Purple Tiger said:
Just so you know, I have a Masters in Divinity. What kind of graduate theological education do you have? I don't say that to brag but to rebut your misguided belief I am lacking in Biblical, theological or historical knowledge. If I challenge your thoughts/beliefs, then answer that challenge like a mature Christian instead trying to belittle someone who may actually know more and think differently than you.
Click to expand...

UT-Rex said:
Re: Christianity started with an outsider, hated by the government of His time It took hundreds of years for the church to gain a strong foothold even advising governments.


a. "Christianity started with an outsider" >> not true, as Jesus was not an "outsider" << he was Jewish, of the Tribe of Judah (so, most definitely, he was in "insider" << He was one of them << Hebrews 7:14, "For it is evident that our Lord has sprung out of Judah," (nasb) / Matthew 1: "In all, then, there were fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.").
Click to expand...

Purple Tiger said:
Jesus was an outsider. There is nothing about Him or His teachings that indicate he was an "insider."He was poor, He wasn't a Pharisee or a Saducee nor was He a tax collector or politician. If you read the Beatitudes, Jesus said He came for outsiders...the poor, the meek, the downtrodden. His own people condemned him to death. Jesus and his followers were largely people who existed on the fringe of society.
Click to expand...

As a follow-up --

I realize you and Ash are likely trying to show, that because the Jewish leaders killed Jesus, that, therefore, he was "an outsider" / IE Not part of the in-crown club .

But, again, Scripture already addresses this topic, in that the Jews regularly killed the prophets (IE The prophets were insiders, not "outsiders" << IE IF you're sent by God, then, you are an insider (in the true sense of this topic).

Otherwise: tell us how in your logic, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Moses (any of them) would be considered "an outsider" considering the fact that God sent them all, AND knowing what Scripture says about God sending Jesus:

aa. Luke 13:34, describes the nature of an "insider" (not "outsider") -- "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children
together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Luke 11:47 -- "Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them."

"prophets" are "insiders" (not "outsiders")

Matthew 21:11 -- "The crowds answered, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee."

a. John 3:17, describes an "insider" -- For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
b. John 6:29, describes an "insider" -- Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
c. John 4:34, describes an "insider" -- Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.
d. John 20:21, describes Jesus as "an insider" -- Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."



Now, tell us, with Scripture, how it is you still think "Jesus was an outsider" (you earlier quoted zero Scripture to prove your point).

Edit: I see you said " If you read the Beatitudes, Jesus said He came for outsiders" << Jesus said "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost" " << the "lost" are insiders (persons of Israel << not relegated to "outsiders") , as well as Gentiles.
 
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#993
#993
Purple Tiger said:
Jesus was an outsider. There is nothing about Him or His teachings that indicate he was an "insider."He was poor, He wasn't a Pharisee or a Saducee nor was He a tax collector or politician. If you read the Beatitudes, Jesus said He came for outsiders...the poor, the meek, the downtrodden. His own people condemned him to death. Jesus and his followers were largely people who existed on the fringe of society.
Click to expand...

RE: Jesus was an outsider. If you read the Beatitudes, Jesus said He came for outsiders.

Do you recognize to whom Jesus was speaking, at the Beatitudes? What is it, about this crowd, that makes you believe they were "outsiders" ?

Are not these the types of people who would go to the temple, to buy things like doves and other animals from the temple keepers?

Jesus is speaking to them, in the context of "your Father in heaven" (which, in Scriptural terms, defines them as "insiders") !


Matthew 6:1
“Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.


Matthew 4:25
The large crowds that followed Him came from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan. When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain and sat down. His disciples came to Him, and He began to teach them, saying:
 
#994
#994
Purple Tiger said:
Jesus was an outsider. There is nothing about Him or His teachings that indicate he was an "insider."He was poor, He wasn't a Pharisee or a Saducee nor was He a tax collector or politician. If you read the Beatitudes, Jesus said He came for outsiders...the poor, the meek, the downtrodden. His own people condemned him to death. Jesus and his followers were largely people who existed on the fringe of society.
Click to expand...


You're trying to teach something that the Bible simply doesn't teach -- these ("followers" of Jesus) are not "people who existed on the fringe of society" (pay attention to "and Arabs" ) (and, you do know how prominant Lydia was, or are you denying that she was a follower of Jesus, or, are you saying one had to be in the prescence of Jesus (when on earth) to be a "follower"? --

Acts 2
Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

Acts 16:40
After Paul and Silas came out of the prison, they went to Lydia's house, where they met with the brothers and sisters and encouraged them. Then they left.

Matthew 6:1
“Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.


Matthew 4:25
The large crowds that followed Him came from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan. When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain and sat down. His disciples came to Him, and He began to teach them, saying:
 
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#996
#996
The reference to Lydia in Acts occurs after Jesus' death, by the way.

Thank you for bringing up my Divinity degree. Using my studies as a reference, I can tell you no major theologian since 100 CE has ever referred to Jesus as an insider. To suggest otherwise is to completely misread and misinterpret the Gospels. Read the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes and see if Jesus is preaching to the insiders of Judea. If Jesus wasn't such an outsider, more people would have thought He was the Messiah. Crowds of His own people would not have called for His execution. As an insider He would have been wealthy and politically influential and not a carpenter/craftsman.

I believe you think that by saying Jesus was an outsider, it demeans Him in some way. Nothing could be further from the truth.
 
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#998
#998
Purple Tiger said:
Jesus was an outsider. There is nothing about Him or His teachings that indicate he was an "insider."He was poor, He wasn't a Pharisee or a Saducee nor was He a tax collector or politician. If you read the Beatitudes, Jesus said He came for outsiders...the poor, the meek, the downtrodden. His own people condemned him to death. Jesus and his followers were largely people who existed on the fringe of society.
Click to expand...


Purple Tiger said:
The reference to Lydia in Acts occurs after Jesus' death, by the way.

Thank you for bringing up my Divinity degree. Using my studies as a reference, I can tell you no major theologian since 100 CE has ever referred to Jesus as an insider. To suggest otherwise is to completely misread and misinterpret the Gospels. Read the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes and see if Jesus is preaching to the insiders of Judea. If Jesus wasn't such an outsider, more people would have thought He was the Messiah. Crowds of His own people would not have called for His execution. As an insider He would have been wealthy and politically influential and not a carpenter/craftsman.

I believe you think that by saying Jesus was an outsider, it demeans Him in some way. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Click to expand...

Moses and Abraham: I would say neither of these men was "an outsider." Neither was Jesus (there's simply zero reason to describe any as such). They were all right there in the midst/middle of the Jewish people (Abraham being the father of ; Moses being the deliverer of ; Jesus being the Messiah of (Jesus taught in the temple and synagague / was definitely not "an outsider").

Let's back up, to get another view of your logic (in addition to what the theologians are teaching you) --

Question: would you categorize Zechariah as "an outsider" or "an insider" ? Please explain what makes him that.

Per 2 Chronicles 24, Jehoiada was the priest / high priest / priest of the temple and brother-in-law to King Ahaziah -- essentially, we can say he was Jewish ("Throughout the days of Jehoiada, burnt offerings were presented regularly in the house of the LORD") << in this context of calling Jesus "an outsider" I believe it's safe to call Jehoiada "an insider."

Zechariah was Jehoiada's son -- Zechariah's mission was similar in many ways to portions of the ministry of Jesus (Zechariah descended from Jewish parents ; Zechariah was sent by God to the people ; Zechariah had direct access to speaking to/teaching the people and religious leaders of Israel/Judah/Jerusalem ; the Holy Spirit "came upon" Zechariah and told him what to say ; Zechariah delivered God's message(s) ; the decision-making-religious leaders / officers of Israel rejected his message / they conspired against him and killed Zechariah).

2 Chron 24
... to Jehoiada to make with it the articles for the house of the LORD.
Throughout the days of Jehoiada, burnt offerings were presented regularly in the house of the LORD.
Jehoiada died. The people then began to worship idols ("after the death of Jehoiada, however, ... They abandoned the house of the LORD, the God of their fathers, and served the Asherah poles and idols. ... Nevertheless, the LORD sent prophets to bring the people back to Him and to testify against them; but they would not listen. ... Then the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah son of Jehoiada the priest, who stood up before the people and said to them, “This is what God says: ‘Why do you transgress the commandments of the LORD?" ... But they conspired against Zechariah, and by order of the king, they stoned him in the courtyard of the house of the LORD. Joash killed Jehoiada’s son. As he lay dying, Zechariah said, ... ).
 
#999
#999
UT-Rex said:
Moses and Abraham: I would say neither of these men was "an outsider." Neither was Jesus (there's simply zero reason to describe any as such). They were all right there in the midst/middle of the Jewish people (Abraham being the father of ; Moses being the deliverer of ; Jesus being the Messiah of (Jesus taught in the temple and synagague / was definitely not "an outsider").

Let's back up, to get another view of your logic (in addition to what the theologians are teaching you) --

Question: would you categorize Zechariah as "an outsider" or "an insider" ? Please explain what makes him that.

Per 2 Chronicles 24, Jehoiada was the priest / high priest / priest of the temple and brother-in-law to King Ahaziah -- essentially, we can say he was Jewish ("Throughout the days of Jehoiada, burnt offerings were presented regularly in the house of the LORD") << in this context of calling Jesus "an outsider" I believe it's safe to call Jehoiada "an insider."

Zechariah was Jehoiada's son -- Zechariah's mission was similar in many ways to portions of the ministry of Jesus (Zechariah descended from Jewish parents ; Zechariah was sent by God to the people ; Zechariah had direct access to speaking to/teaching the people and religious leaders of Israel/Judah/Jerusalem ; the Holy Spirit "came upon" Zechariah and told him what to say ; Zechariah delivered God's message(s) ; the decision-making-religious leaders / officers of Israel rejected his message / they conspired against him and killed Zechariah).

2 Chron 24
... to Jehoiada to make with it the articles for the house of the LORD.
Throughout the days of Jehoiada, burnt offerings were presented regularly in the house of the LORD.
Jehoiada died. The people then began to worship idols ("after the death of Jehoiada, however, ... They abandoned the house of the LORD, the God of their fathers, and served the Asherah poles and idols. ... Nevertheless, the LORD sent prophets to bring the people back to Him and to testify against them; but they would not listen. ... Then the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah son of Jehoiada the priest, who stood up before the people and said to them, “This is what God says: ‘Why do you transgress the commandments of the LORD?" ... But they conspired against Zechariah, and by order of the king, they stoned him in the courtyard of the house of the LORD. Joash killed Jehoiada’s son. As he lay dying, Zechariah said, ... ).
Click to expand...

Your blathering makes absolutely no sense. We are talking about Jesus, not Abraham, Moses or Zechariah. I would say stop before you embarrass yourself but it is too late for that now.
 
#1,000
#1,000
Purple Tiger said:
Your blathering makes absolutely no sense. We are talking about Jesus, not Abraham, Moses or Zechariah. I would say stop before you embarrass yourself but it is too late for that now.
Click to expand...

I’ve enjoyed reading your posts with the other guy on ignorant. Its entertaining for me to fill in the other half of the conversation in my mind. I’m not going to look but I bet I am not far off.
 
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