Islam is of the Devil?

[JZVOL]

so how did the universe start? personally i don't know one way or another, but i don't see how your theory is any less crazy than the christian one. we know for a fact jesus existed adn that the facts of his life in the bible are fairly accurate (outside of the miracles of course). just like we know for a fact there is a universe.

I think that's fair. And in regards to who Jesus was you either believe he was the son of God, you don't believe it or you don't care.

Jesus is either one of the best liars in the history of the world or God.

 

[JZVOL]

So how did God start? We can play that game all day. I understand you are agnostic, just trying to make a point.

While I concede that a man named Jesus more than likely walked in Palenstine 2000 years ago and was executed by the Roman authority, outside of the Bible there is very little, if any, independent confirmation of his life. We don't know a thing about him between childhood and adult life. To me anyway, the "fact" that he did live is not on the same level as the fact that there is a universe.

And the facts around Muhammad's life are pretty well documented and confirmed, but that says jack squat about his divinity.

Exactly. He either who he said he was or one of the greatest liars in the history of the civilization.

 

[gsvol]

I'm not going to argue with the man.

Islam believes that Jesus was just another prophet and not the Son of God. Islam denies that Jesus is God in the flesh. It denies that Jesus is divine. It denies that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins. In fact most Muslims believe the Judas died in his place. It denies that He rose from the dead. They also deny that He is the final revelation of God.

Sounds like the Devil's work to me.

This is the same doctrine taught by the so-called church in Chicago that the Obamas were members of for about twenty years.

In Islamic doctrine it is taught that Jesus was a prophet but that his teaching have been corrupted by Christians down through the centuries and that Islam is the only true faith.

They teach the same for Judaism, Abraham was a prophet but the Jews have corrupted his teachings.

 

[turambar85]

I think that's fair. And in regards to who Jesus was you either believe he was the son of God, you don't believe it or you don't care.

Jesus is either one of the best liars in the history of the world or God.

Or C) he was a kind, deluded man who was backed up by the greatest posse of liars in history, a posse that quickly learned how valuable the lies could be, and thus increased membership!

 

[IPorange]

I think that's fair. And in regards to who Jesus was you either believe he was the son of God, you don't believe it or you don't care.

Jesus is either one of the best liars in the history of the world or God.

It's incredible that you hear people say that silly little line so much. Of course there are other options. Such as realistic ones.

Either Mohammed is one of the best liars in history of the world or he is the one true prophet of Allah.

 

[turambar85]

It's incredible that you hear people say that silly little line so much. Of course there are other options. Such as realistic ones.

Either Mohammed is one of the best liars in history of the world or he is the one true prophet of Allah.

True, the gullibility of the crowd in no way illustrates the talents of the liar.

 

[T-TownVol]

You two inspire me to sing..."what a fool belieeeves"

 

[Jewbaccah]

[

SycloneJoe;2484188]Not the exact same feelings (911 probably has something to do with that) but I believe they are both wrong.

Jews do believe that Jesus died on the cross. The pharisees and sadducees are the ones who had him put there.

Wrong, Your information is not even slightly correct. I suggest going and taking a real history class. I am guessing you saw "The Passion of Christ" and thought it was a documentary. The Romans were in control of all things in Israel at that point. The Jewish high Priest was in fact Roman (there was a second high priest underground who was actually Jewish)-The King was put in place by Romans as he was Roman nobility again not Jewish. Thus we were fighting a revolutionary war against them. This is were the term Zealots comes from. The Romans had your boy crucified. It is documented by Josephus a Roman historian-former Jew. Although he was one of 5 Rabbis crucified that day and nothing special was noted about him. All other stories are fantasies created by men who believed Judaism had to die for Christianity to thrive-it was called the withering stump theory created by Paul-who was exiled from Israel himself as a fanatic. There is not one shred of evidence or circumstance that should lead anyone to believe Jews killed your boy. It is utter nonsense.

BTW Pharisees and Sadducees really just describe classes the former the working class and the latter the white collar nobility class. Anything else you wanna know you have to pay for I am a Jew.

Catholics dont "worship" Mary. Catholics will tell you that honoring the saints and Mary is not worship. The Catholic religion worships God alone.

Well true but in S. America not true. It is not approved of by the church but they worship her as a deity for sure.

You're right. It's totally logical to believe there's some Wizard of Ozesque figure at some undisclosed location in the sky pulling the strings.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Damn you stole this from some movie or show and I cannot remember which one. Belief is what it is. It is a choice. You choose not to ok it makes you no more or less of a fool then any other man.

what were Hitler's religious views again?

Nazism is a religion. In the final solution they meant to replace Christianity and Islam as well. It is some wacked stuff for reading if you are bored see "Mein Kampf"

 

[gsvol]

1. Belief is what it is. It is a choice. You choose not to ok it makes you no more or less of a fool then any other man.

2. Nazism is a religion. In the final solution they meant to replace Christianity and Islam as well.

1. But what if the divine is revealed, would one have no choice but to believe??

2. Do you see any parallels between nazism and modern day gay rights, animal rights, eco rights and the all powerful state?? For that matter does not communism (or whatever label you choose for that way of thinking) propose to replace all religions in the end?

 

[rjd970]

Damn you stole this from some movie or show and I cannot remember which one. Belief is what it is. It is a choice. You choose not to ok it makes you no more or less of a fool then any other man.

Religion, like with all beliefs of anykind, is highly dependent on the reasons behind it. Believe in Jesus, Muhammad, Darwinian Theories, unicorns, bigfoot....the debate shouldn't be about the belief itself, it should be about the reasons one has for the belief.

 

[JZVOL]

It's incredible that you hear people say that silly little line so much. Of course there are other options. Such as realistic ones.

Either Mohammed is one of the best liars in history of the world or he is the one true prophet of Allah.

Sorry for being so silly oh wise one.

 

[jbakes]

Thank God that Jesus invaded my life.

Life in His presence is 100's of times better than the life I lived before.

Jesus claimed to be God, and also claimed to be the only way to be made right with God. So you can either say He was a raving lunatic along the lines of Charles Manson or you can wake up to the life line that God is trying to throw you.

 

[gsvol]

Thank God that Jesus invaded my life.

Life in His presence is 100's of times better than the life I lived before.

Jesus claimed to be God, and also claimed to be the only way to be made right with God. So you can either say He was a raving lunatic along the lines of Charles Manson or you can wake up to the life line that God is trying to throw you.

Good testimony Jbakes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the light.

Muhammed is more like Charles Manson, evil incarnate.

BTW, lest you forget, God gave us dominion over the animals and not vice versa.

 

[turambar85]

Good testimony Jbakes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the light.

Muhammed is more like Charles Manson, evil incarnate.

BTW, lest you forget, God gave us dominion over the animals and not vice versa.

I do have to admit that I am jealous. I would love to be able to attribute all kinds of rights and powers to an imaginary being, entirely beyond proof or evidence.

And Muhammed is evil according to ... the principle of disagreeing with this areas imaginary friend of choice?

 

[Jewbaccah]

1. Belief is what it is. It is a choice. You choose not to ok it makes you no more or less of a fool then any other man.

2. Nazism is a religion. In the final solution they meant to replace Christianity and Islam as well.

1. But what if the divine is revealed, would one have no choice but to believe??

2. Do you see any parallels between nazism and modern day gay rights, animal rights, eco rights and the all powerful state?? For that matter does not communism (or whatever label you choose for that way of thinking) propose to replace all religions in the end?

1. There is always a choice. I made mine. I choose to believe in g-d. I would never claim it is fact. I am not sure myself at times. But in the end, I choose to believe because if there is nothing else but what we see now then life is truly a sad tease, and I see so many things unexplained by probability or coincidence. Is it not revealed in everyday miracles yet people choose not to believe? Did not g-d show his presence a multitude of times and yet still people do not believe. It is always a choice.

2. Nazism is a self proclaimed religion. So no, I do not see similarities with what you mentioned except communism. It is belief structure that replaces religion all together thus I agree it is a religion.
:hi:

 

[Jewbaccah]

Religion, like with all beliefs of anykind, is highly dependent on the reasons behind it. Believe in Jesus, Muhammad, Darwinian Theories, unicorns, bigfoot....the debate shouldn't be about the belief itself, it should be about the reasons one has for the belief.

I disagree. The debate should center on the actions a certain belief structure creates. For example, Christianity has had two histories. The first history is one of blood murder and sin. This is mainly because it was used in its creation by the Romans as a device to control ignorant masses. The followers in some ways were not Christians. They had no education in the book. Yet, they acted as a mob murdering many people based on ridiculous beliefs. There was then a transition period where you have some mixed reviews and then now. Today's Christianity has developed into something that is mainly peaceful and full of goodwill. Some of its followers are ignorant *ssh*les but every religion is going to have that including my own. An a whole this world would be far worse off if were not for the Christian faith.

You compare that to Islam and you get another result. This is not to say it could not change it is a younger faith. Judaism in its beginnings was far more violent as well. And has not been a violent religion on a whole in 2 thousand years or so. The problem is in the pudding. Judaism and Christianity share a book. It has things in it that can be considered crude or barbaric but nothing like what the Quran contains. The Bible in the end teaches peace and non-violence. The exception is when g-d commands it. We have not had a counsel of prophets since before the common era so that has not been an issue.

Islam demand violence upon its followers maybe not to the degree some have taken it to but in reading the book there is no doubt it sanctifies violence in the name of faith. So we are entering a period where things have to change. Islam must find a way to evolve like Christianity did or it must be dealt with appropriately. Overall its affect on society is one of major detriment as we stand now. Before anyone jumps on me, I am not saying it cannot evolve and become a source for light in the world. I am not saying there are not some excellent people who are Muslim. I am saying as a whole it is a detrimental faith.:zeitung_lesen:

 

[gsvol]

I do have to admit that I am jealous. I would love to be able to attribute all kinds of rights and powers to an imaginary being, entirely beyond proof or evidence.

And Muhammed is evil according to ... the principle of disagreeing with this areas imaginary friend of choice?

Then you are jealous on a false assumption, Jesus can prove his existence at any moment, because you have not experienced such or that you imagine there is no divine realm does not make it so. Pity the fool.

Study the history islam, which is not only a religion but a political, economic, legal system from beginning until present day and count the millions who were murdered, enslaved, castrated and mutilated in other ways and tell me that is good. Can you say to walk into a crowded marketplace and blow youself up, killing and maiming many, including children, in the name of muhammed is not evil???

1. There is always a choice. I made mine. I choose to believe in g-d. I would never claim it is fact. I am not sure myself at times. But in the end, I choose to believe because if there is nothing else but what we see now then life is truly a sad tease, and I see so many things unexplained by probability or coincidence. Is it not revealed in everyday miracles yet people choose not to believe? Did not g-d show his presence a multitude of times and yet still people do not believe. It is always a choice.

2. Nazism is a self proclaimed religion. So no, I do not see similarities with what you mentioned except communism. It is belief structure that replaces religion all together thus I agree it is a religion.
:hi:

1. True, there is always the option of choice, even under the rule of islam, which is to choose to profess to believe or die, or in some cases pay an extra tax and live a while longer if you are considered useful to the rule of islam.

So you believe in a g-d, do you believe also in Jesus the Son??

2. Two similarities that jump right out are the advocacy of homosexual behavior and the animal rights laws put into place by the nazis. A third and probably more important one was the gun control measures. Our 1968 gun control act is written almost verbatum along the lines of a 1930's nazi gun control law.

Naziism was steeped in pagan folklore and the occult. Gaia the mother earth goddess goes right along with much of the ecological rhetoric in todays political scene, as well does animal rights.

A good example of what I am saying is a quote from one who has been called the godfather of animal rights; "For the animal rights movement to suceed, the Judeo-Christian tradition must be destroyed."

 

[english_vol]

Religion, like with all beliefs of anykind, is highly dependent on the reasons behind it. Believe in Jesus, Muhammad, Darwinian Theories, unicorns, bigfoot....the debate shouldn't be about the belief itself, it should be about the reasons one has for the belief.

i would say 90% of peoples reasoning for being the religion that they are is not their choice but that of their parents and other ancestors. It is then as parents take you to church/synagogue/mosque that many believe in that certain religion as that is what they grow up wth and there original role models(parents) believe in.

For instance if nobody choose a religion until they were 20 with no outside influences i doubt everyone would be the same religion they are now.


As for the OP it goes against all Catholic teachings of accepting people for what they are, but i would be shocked if not one mosque in the world said something along the same lines as it.

 

[tvolsfan]

So how did God start? We can play that game all day.

It isn't really the same question. If you are using logic/science to explain everything, then you would have to explain the big bang and why it would have happened like that. If you believe in a higher power that is all powerfull, you don't really need an explanation for its origin.

 

[Jewbaccah]

1. True, there is always the option of choice, even under the rule of islam, which is to choose to profess to believe or die, or in some cases pay an extra tax and live a while longer if you are considered useful to the rule of islam.

So you believe in a g-d, do you believe also in Jesus the Son??

2. Two similarities that jump right out are the advocacy of homosexual behavior and the animal rights laws put into place by the nazis. A third and probably more important one was the gun control measures. Our 1968 gun control act is written almost verbatum along the lines of a 1930's nazi gun control law.

Naziism was steeped in pagan folklore and the occult. Gaia the mother earth goddess goes right along with much of the ecological rhetoric in todays political scene, as well does animal rights.

A good example of what I am saying is a quote from one who has been called the godfather of animal rights; "For the animal rights movement to suceed, the Judeo-Christian tradition must be destroyed."

[/QUOTE]

1. No I am Jewish. Jews do not believe in Jesus other then as a historical figure. Although, we both believe in the coming of the messiah. You guys think he came and is coming again.


2. I understand that some who believe in animal rights may have religious beliefs. But to say the average everyday animal rights person or homosexual wants to bring down Judeo-Christian beliefs is not accurate. They are separate issues in general. An Aunt of mine runs an animal rights organization in Israel. She is far from a normal person but she is a person of the Jewish faith and solid human being. She just really cares about the treatment of animals. The problem is in the politics the extremest always rise to the top. Who else would want anything to do with the political structure?


As far as our laws having similarities to Nazi laws well I believe the reason behind the laws are quite different. I do think we are at a point in our society where the people of faith and those without are coming into a new type of conflict. I would see it as more similar to the Soviet Union. Obama himself reminds me of early Soviet leaders. A man of little moral grounding. He believes he is grounded in rational thought. Although rational thought is only a tool of the assumptions we base them on. He has no assumptions of meaning. He is open to all ideas it seems yet believes solidly in nothing. Thus, he will lead us where ever the winds take us. It is easier to go with the wind then fight it. :hi:

 

[rjd970]

It isn't really the same question. If you are using logic/science to explain everything, then you would have to explain the big bang and why it would have happened like that. If you believe in a higher power that is all powerfull, you don't really need an explanation for its origin.

This is cute.

Who said anything about the Big Bang?- And if you believe a higher power that is all powerful doesn't need an explanation for its origin, it is still just as easy for me to say the universe doesn't need an explanation for its origin, it is everlasting and outside of time.

It all regress back to something, we are just choosing different cuttoffs. You say the higher power doesn't need an origin, and I say the universe doesn't need an origin. Given how little we actually know about how space-time really works, my answer is just as reasonable as anything else.

This whole business about everything needed a maker but the maker didn't is silly. It is a lame attempt at logic where the logical premise refutes itself. All I am saying is if you get around this by claiming the maker is exempt by definition, then what's wrong with claiming anything else along the chain exempt by definition?

 

[turambar85]

Then you are jealous on a false assumption, Jesus can prove his existence at any moment, because you have not experienced such or that you imagine there is no divine realm does not make it so. Pity the fool.

Study the history islam, which is not only a religion but a political, economic, legal system from beginning until present day and count the millions who were murdered, enslaved, castrated and mutilated in other ways and tell me that is good. Can you say to walk into a crowded marketplace and blow youself up, killing and maiming many, including children, in the name of muhammed is not evil???

Well, as for your second post, you really need to improve your understanding of history. It is verrrrry selective. Christianity, at around the same point in it's temporal development as Islam, was as violent and aggressive. After basically the same time in existence, the Christian world was mired in crusades, witch burnings, and religious persecution. They didn't accept other versions of Christianity, and were killing each other. Not to mention, Muslims doing evil things does NOT make Muhammed evil!

It isn't Islam that is evil, it is religion that tends to be so. Lucky for us, the Christian west has had a steady infusion of secularism to dampen the evils of a religious state. Islam is Christianity without the benefits of a secular governing system.

As for your first paragraph, I'm confused as to your definition of proof. Jesus cannot prove anything, as you cannot tell a false experience of Christ from a true one. The mystics, Muslims, Hindi, etc. all have vivid experiences that they base their entire life on. Religion is built on faith, and faith does not rest of proof. Again, "Jesus" cannot prove "himself" at any moment, because "Jesus" cannot prove "himself at all. Not to mention, even above and beyond these difficulties of proof, Jesus isn't real. He is a long decomposed Jewish body, the most "he" can hope is that the body isn't entirely decomposed. That would be the miracle!

 

[gsvol]

1. No I am Jewish. Jews do not believe in Jesus other then as a historical figure. Although, we both believe in the coming of the messiah. You guys think he came and is coming again. [/QUOTE]

Any particular reason you do not accept Him as the Messiah?

Do you consider yourself Jewish by birth (Hebrew) or by faith??

2. I understand that some who believe in animal rights may have religious beliefs. But to say the average everyday animal rights person or homosexual wants to bring down Judeo-Christian beliefs is not accurate. They are separate issues in general. An Aunt of mine runs an animal rights organization in Israel. She is far from a normal person but she is a person of the Jewish faith and solid human being. She just really cares about the treatment of animals. The problem is in the politics the extremest always rise to the top. Who else would want anything to do with the political structure?

Well the extremists do the most to advance legislation of laws, court rulings and dictate public policy, as well as being proactive in the election of amimal rights friendly legislators. For instance we recently have seen an overturning of 300 years of legal precedent in making of supposed animal abuse into a felony instead of a misdemeanor.

Others are just willing sheep.


BTW, the nazis had the most stringent animal rights laws in history. It is a bit ironic that the jewish state representative in Tennessee, Cohen, introduced a state law that was almost a duplicate of nazi law
that was most detrimental to farmers, ie, you cannot shoe your own horse but must hire a licensed farerier, not castrate your own pigs but hire a licensed vetenarian, etc etc.

As far as our laws having similarities to Nazi laws well I believe the reason behind the laws are quite different. I do think we are at a point in our society where the people of faith and those without are coming into a new type of conflict. I would see it as more similar to the Soviet Union.

Well said.

Bear in mind socialism is socialism whether it be of the fascist or the internatioinalist kind, the government is all powerful.

Obama himself reminds me of early Soviet leaders. A man of little moral grounding. He believes he is grounded in rational thought. Although rational thought is only a tool of the assumptions we base them on. He has no assumptions of meaning. He is open to all ideas it seems yet believes solidly in nothing. Thus, he will lead us where ever the winds take us. It is easier to go with the wind then fight it. :hi:

Ditto, except for the last line, through the power of Jesus I have commanded the wind, in a physical sense if not in a political sense, I leave that to Him, so far.

--------------------------

Back to the topic of 'is islam evil?'

Sharia Law And Forced Amputations In Nigeria

"This is what God said" (muslim law of sharia)

Obama nominee sees no "reason why sharia law would not be applied to govern a case in the United States"

(bear in mind that Koh is reportedly near the top of the list of litigators Obama would nominate to any supreme court vacancies.)

 

[tvolsfan]

Who said anything about the Big Bang?- And if you believe a higher power that is all powerful doesn't need an explanation for its origin, it is still just as easy for me to say the universe doesn't need an explanation for its origin, it is everlasting and outside of time.

You can say that if you want to. It doesn't sound the least bit logical or scientific, does it?

 

[turambar85]

You can say that if you want to. It doesn't sound the least bit logical or scientific, does it?

Ignoring the fact that logical scientists believe it...and it sure beats the hell out of an invisible megalomaniacal superman with a worship fetish.