Israel vs Palestinians

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#20,528
turbovol said:
It's the land where Palestinians have been living for hundreds of years. Land that Israel has been directly stealing from them since the 1940s.
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History is riddled with land stolen/taken from peoples by other peoples since the dawn of human existence. Is this any different than any other examples throughout human history?

If so why? If not why are you so fixated on this example?
 
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KB5252 said:
History is riddled with land stolen/taken from peoples by other peoples since the dawn of human existence. Is this any different than any other examples throughout human history?

If so why? If not why are you so fixated on this example?
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Its also historically pretty short sighted. The Jews have been the longest tenured occupants of the land. at least from recorded history.
 
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LouderVol said:
Its also historically pretty short sighted. The Jews have been the longest tenured occupants of the land. at least from recorded history.
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Although most of them left or converted to another religion. Ancestors of the recent immigrants from Europe hadn't been in the Levant for hundreds of years.
 
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EasternVol said:
Although most of them left or converted to another religion. Ancestors of the recent immigrants from Europe hadn't been in the Levant for hundreds of years.
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that seems to be a bit of a circular argument. you could argue the same thing about the arabs in the region. various religions, creeds, and ethnic groups of muslims have been the majority in Israel at various points.

is there a threshold or cut off on the remaining population to maintain claims?
Is there a threshold to how long someone has to be in the area before its theirs vs the previous guy's?
Is it enough for the majority to be a singular religion to claim the area for any other group of that same religion? -This would apply to the Jews as well.

looking at the history it seems the various populations have shifted around a bunch.
 
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LouderVol said:
I do have a question for anyone, but figure @Orangeslice13 may know better.

what is driving the expansion of Israel (outside of the war itself)?
1. Is it an actual market force, like there are Jews in Israel without proper housing and the land is needed to house them? Are they out of arable land and NEED Palestine for farms or other crucial infrastructure?

2. Is the current population fine, but there is some push to bring the Diaspora home? An Israeli home for every Jew in the world?

3. Is it just that Palestinian land is cheaper than Israeli land? and its the path of least financial resistance for Jews?

4. Is it just some desire to be the only/main one in control of the Holy Land? Or something else that would fall under zionism?

5. Is it simply because they have a dangerous neighbor, and the real drive is for safety, and the expansion is just an unintended benefit because there is a new vacuum that no one else is "allowed" to use?

From what I have read its some combination of 3, 4, 5. But I am curious if there are other factors, and how much of a part they would play. My guess is 3/4/5 makes up about 80% of the reason, and everything else falls into the other 20%. My understanding is that Netanyahu is definitely more in the Zionism reasoning, but I know there are several counter parties with their own drivers.
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This group currently calling the shots are beyond “Zionist” they are making a push to claim the land that G-d promised to the Hebrew people long long ago. The argument is that they never received the promise because they never took the promise. So now they’re taking the promise. 2-3 years ago I heard that the plan was to give Hamas enough freedom that they would do…..exactly what they did and give Israel the excuse needed to make a big move.

Not to be provocative or anything but if you’re interested in that sort of thing, look up the land the people of Israel were promised.
 
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Orangeslice13 said:
This group currently calling the shots are beyond “Zionist” they are making a push to claim the land that G-d promised to the Hebrew people long long ago. The argument is that they never received the promise because they never took the promise. So now they’re taking the promise. 2-3 years ago I heard that the plan was to give Hamas enough freedom that they would do…..exactly what they did and give Israel the excuse needed to make a big move.

Not to be provocative or anything but if you’re interested in that sort of thing, look up the land the people of Israel were promised.
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That's interesting.
The land with the borders promised to Abraham?

Nm, I just looked on a map, there's no chance at Israel expanding to the Abraham borders.
 
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#20,534
McDad said:
That's interesting.
The land with the borders promised to Abraham?

Nm, I just looked on a map, there's no chance at Israel expanding to the Abraham borders.
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See what I’m saying.
It’s a crazy group behind the scenes over there. Listen for this phrase, it will help you understand who you’re dealing with.

Reh-Tzone HaShem

It loosely means “it’s G-ds will” or “G-d wills it”.
 
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Orangeslice13 said:
See what I’m saying.
It’s a crazy group behind the scenes over there. Listen for this phrase, it will help you understand who you’re dealing with.

Reh-Tzone HaShem

It loosely means “it’s G-ds will” or “G-d wills it”.
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It's ironic how His will mysteriously matches people's own will when we really want something.
 
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McDad said:
It's ironic how His will mysteriously matches people's own will when we really want something.
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That seems to be consistent across all religions.

I’m a pretty religious person….publicly and privately. I keep hearing people say “god told me to do…….” I can honestly say I’ve never had that experience. Clearly G-d thinks I’m doing ok by myself ……..or he has no specific plans for me……either way, never been told what G-ds will is. Not by G-d, anyway
 
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Orangeslice13 said:
That seems to be consistent across all religions.

I’m a pretty religious person….publicly and privately. I keep hearing people say “god told me to do…….” I can honestly say I’ve never had that experience. Clearly G-d thinks I’m doing ok by myself ……..or he has no specific plans for me……either way, never been told what G-ds will is. Not by G-d, anyway
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I really wanna follow up with a discussion but don't wanna hijack this thread. Gonna post it in your "blessings" thread in zone.
 
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LouderVol said:
that seems to be a bit of a circular argument. you could argue the same thing about the arabs in the region. various religions, creeds, and ethnic groups of muslims have been the majority in Israel at various points.

is there a threshold or cut off on the remaining population to maintain claims?
Is there a threshold to how long someone has to be in the area before its theirs vs the previous guy's?
Is it enough for the majority to be a singular religion to claim the area for any other group of that same religion? -This would apply to the Jews as well.

looking at the history it seems the various populations have shifted around a bunch.
Click to expand...
Not so much. Was it various ethic groups of Muslims, and Christians and Hebrews, in the majority or changes in religion and or ruling empire?
 
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LouderVol said:
I am not sure what you are saying/asking here?
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You said various Muslim ethnic groups have been the majority there. I question whether that's indeed the case and point to changes instead in which empire ruled. There's also a significant Christian history there to consider, and those Hebrews that long ago converted to Christianity and Islam.
 
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EasternVol said:
You said various Muslim ethnic groups have been the majority there. I question whether that's indeed the case and point to changes instead in which empire ruled. There's also a significant Christian history there to consider, and those Hebrews that long ago converted to Christianity and Islam.
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yeah, the various conquests and wars have moved different groups into the region. Under the invasion of Saladin it was more "southern" Arabs (Copts and Bedouins). Under the Turks it was more "northern" arabs(Armenians, Assyrians, Circassians, Kurds). There have also been several invasions from the east that have pushed other tribes into the region (Druze, Persians, Zoroastrians). Even today the Sunni/Shia divide is present in Palestinian muslims, most are Sunni, but the Shia have enough of presence to have their own political group and aspirations.

even among the Jews you have had Adeni, Habbani, Mizrahi, and I am sure plenty of others. the term "Semite" as in anti-semitic isn't 100% specific towards Jews, even though that is how it is typically used. There were also all the tribes the Bible mentions, Canaanites, Samaritans and the like. Those were all Semitic peoples who lived in the region for a real long time, thousands of years, not hundreds or dozens.

The Christians even saw a lot of change. Before the crusades they were what we would now call "eastern/orthodox" Christians. after the crusades it was much more of western christians, which would now be closer to "Catholics", and over various points it shifted back to various eastern groups as they were pushed out of Turkey, parts of Caucuses, and even Russia and other areas for being the wrong types of Christians at home.

Before christians came along there was a strong "greek" presence too under the Romans and Greeks.

^I don't think all of those were majorities, just that they were major influences on the population at various points. I can't find a census that breaks down the population much more than beyond major religion; and just have to read up on generally who moved in when.

after about the 1800s I don't really see anything talking about different ethnicities and its broken down as "Palestinians" "Jew" "Christian", but when the British took over after WW1 they noted that most of the Palestinians weren't born in the area. So it really seems like Palestinian is used in a general term to cover muslims who currently live in Palestine. Not that they are specific ethnicity and from a certain back ground, and generally conform to specific cultural heritage.

at least for the Jews, they started from the region. were kicked out a various points, and then came back even though they may be considered "German" "Russian" "African" or whatever, their culture and ancestors came from the area of Israel. Not sure most of the rest can make that claim. I am sure there are still some other Semites in the area, but it doesn't seem to be the argument they make for claiming the area of Israel as their home.

Like I said it becomes a circular argument
 
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hog88 said:
It's THE POINT. There is and hasn't been a nation or state of Palestine. Hamas is a domestic terrorist group and Israel is well within their right to do what is necessary to eradicate them.
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It's still a place and whether it was a nation or a state doesn't matter. Why does that matter to what's right and wrong? You're worse than a lawyer.

Also, 70% of the nations on earth recognize Palestine as a state, so now what?

Has anybody argued Israel doesn't have the nod to eradicate Hamas? The problem is and has always been the innocents
 
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n_huffhines said:
It's still a place and whether it was a nation or a state doesn't matter. Why does that matter to what's right and wrong? You're worse than a lawyer.

Also, 70% of the nations on earth recognize Palestine as a state, so now what?

Has anybody argued Israel doesn't have the nod to eradicate Hamas? The problem is and has always been the innocents
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70% of the nations on earth don't matter.
Palestine not being a nation does matter, if it were a nation Hamas and the civilians supporting them would have an argument for protection under the Geneva accords.
The innocents, which there are very few have had options to GTFO.
 
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hog88 said:
70% of the nations on earth don't matter.
Palestine not being a nation does matter, if it were a nation Hamas and the civilians supporting them would have an argument for protection under the Geneva accords.
The innocents, which there are very few have had options to GTFO.
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Why?
 
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