Japan will be dealing "for decades" from Fukushima

[milohimself]

If I read gibbs post "time horizon" and "capital" in the same paragraph again, I'm going to kick a puppy.

 

[IPorange]

That's very vague and could refer to a wide range of issues. The fact of the matter is, Japan was struck with a combination of an earthquake and tsunami that was outside of their safety margins. This, in combination with loss of other external power sources, resulted in the loss on cooling in a functional, but still 40 year old plant.

I have a hard time believing that their nuclear accidents and dangerous safety guidelines had anything to do with this. If so, I commend the IAEA on foreseeing the worst natural disaster in Japan's history.

Spot on. the sort of things those reports are referencing are nothing compared to the disaster that happened.

 

[Weezy]

And I don't like comparing the United States energy policy and nuclear regulation to that of Japan's. Mostly because I have no knowledge of Japan's regulatory structure, but I doubt it's the exact same as ours. Also, this is just my gut instinct, but the Japanese are a very prideful people. I could see how that would not fit very well into the regulator and utility relationship. You need to report accidents and respond to the regulator. Reminds me of The Patriot..... Benjamin Martin:"Pride. Pride's a weakness." Jean Villeneuve:"Personally I would prefer stupidity." Benjamin Martin:"Pride will do."

I will say off the top of my head and not a terrible lot of utility experience we need to look at our spent fuel pool management and the integrity of our external generators. And I know it's impossible, but it would be really cool if we could make our old fleet of BWRs capable of natural circulation without pumps.

A knee jerk reaction in this case is most likely probable but unnecessary IMO.

 

[milohimself]

Off topic, and a little macabre, but watching the Colbert Report and he was talking about the earthquake, then tsunami then volcano eruption in Japan... Said "Disaster stuffed into a disaster into a disaster... It's like a disaster turducken!"

Gold IMO

 

[utgibbs]

And I don't like comparing the United States energy policy and nuclear regulation to that of Japan's. Mostly because I have no knowledge of Japan's regulatory structure, but I doubt it's the exact same as ours. Also, this is just my gut instinct, but the Japanese are a very prideful people. I could see how that would not fit very well into the regulator and utility relationship. You need to report accidents and respond to the regulator. Reminds me of The Patriot..... Benjamin Martin:"Pride. Pride's a weakness." Jean Villeneuve:"Personally I would prefer stupidity." Benjamin Martin:"Pride will do."

I will say off the top of my head and not a terrible lot of utility experience we need to look at our spent fuel pool management and the integrity of our external generators. And I know it's impossible, but it would be really cool if we could make our old fleet of BWRs capable of natural circulation without pumps.

A knee jerk reaction in this case is most likely probable but unnecessary IMO.

I'm not sure you can have a knee jerk reaction to something that has already poisoned your food, and will affect your unborn grandchildren.

1. TEPCO falsified cooling temperatures at the site since 1985.

2. In Sep 2002 Nobuyama Minami resigns - along with most of the executives - as they implemented a sustained program of covering up 29 cracks in the reactor for several years.

3. In 1999 two employees died from radiation poisoning.

4. Four killed in a steam leak in 2006.

I'll say again, if the Japanese can't be honest about nuclear power, who can you trust? Answer, no one. The record in the US is equally appalling, and we can draw on A LOT more resources.

The next crisis will be the most appaling lack of oversight... or the most unfortunate and unforeseen circumstances... or the most heinous act of terrorism...

 

[utgibbs]

Gibbs, I'm asking an honest question.

What the hell happened to you?

Were you always like this or was there some life altering moment?

Your reference of Capital like it's an entity is beginning to creep me out.

It creeps me out that the needs of Capital always supercedes the needs of people whenever the two intersect.

It creeps me out that a small but significant fraction believe this is "ultimate freedom."

It creeps me out that no one has yet offered one shred of evidence to the contrary, and yet continue to believe not much is wrong....

 

[droski]

To put it simply, I would like a world where social needs are supreme over the economic rationality of Capital. I believe this is real freedom, in the fullest classical sense of liberalism, and far, far greater than the "consumer sovereignty" regaled as the "End of History" in our own time. We are on a collision course with a bankrupt world (not just in the banks, mind you), not even the most uncritical apologist of the current order denies this. The solution, however, is not more of the same.

in other words anything practical and executable you will complain about.

 

[utgibbs]

in other words anything practical and executable you will complain about.

I wonder if your use of "executable" is something akin to a Freudian slip given the relentless drive to anthropogenic environmental catastrophe. To say nothing of the other dangers on display most visibly right now every day.

Wasn't it Reagan who called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights "letters to Santa Claus?"

Of course, as you and your big pimpin' colleagues are fond to remind us, there is no and can be no limit to the nanny state for Capital. Corporations, indeed, MUST be given rights even beyond the UDoHR. The unsustatianability - both in the real world outside the back door and even in intellectual discourse - structure and contradictions of the system could not be more pronounced.

 

[n_huffhines]

To put it simply, I would like a world where social needs are supreme over the economic rationality of Capital. I believe this is real freedom, in the fullest classical sense of liberalism, and far, far greater than the "consumer sovereignty" regaled as the "End of History" in our own time.

Security is not freedom. Security is security. Freedom is freedom.

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” - Ben Franklin

Classical liberalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[utgibbs]

Security is not freedom. Security is security. Freedom is freedom.

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” - Ben Franklin

Classical liberalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you suggesting there is a disconnect?

I should note, my definition of freedom goes beyond the classical liberal sense. However, it is always instructive to recall classic liberalism when a certain coterie lavishes uncritical praise on its merits, all the while defending the "fundamental right" of a transnational corporation to those rights. It makes the entire idea farce.

 

[n_huffhines]

Are you suggesting there is a disconnect?

I should note, my definition of freedom goes beyond the classical liberal sense. However, it is always instructive to recall classic liberalism when a certain coterie lavishes uncritical praise on its merits, all the while defending the "fundamental right" of a transnational corporation to those rights. It makes the entire idea farce.

There is no perfect system. A free society just happens to be the best solution. We are so scared of freedom because we think entities will act unethically, but regulation hasn't stopped those people from acting unethically so what purpose does it serve other than to restrict economic growth and promote "croney" capitalism?

 

[rjd970]

That's very vague and could refer to a wide range of issues. The fact of the matter is, Japan was struck with a combination of an earthquake and tsunami that was outside of their safety margins. This, in combination with loss of other external power sources, resulted in the loss on cooling in a functional, but still 40 year old plant.

I have a hard time believing that their nuclear accidents and dangerous safety guidelines had anything to do with this. If so, I commend the IAEA on foreseeing the worst natural disaster in Japan's history.

Exactly. The OP referencing this as an accident is stupid. This was a disaster caused by natural events. It isn't like Homer Simpson slipped on a donut and pushed the wrong lever.

 

[IPorange]

Exactly. The OP referencing this as an accident is stupid. This was a disaster caused by natural events. It isn't like Homer Simpson slipped on a donut and pushed the wrong lever.

One can conveniently blame "Capital" for everything. Even Chernobyl, apparently. Because it wasn't real "communism."

 

[droski]

hate to agree with gibbs, but a disaster like this (earthquake + tsunami) was predictable in a lifetime. obviously there was a screw up.

 

[IPorange]

Of course it was predictable. It doesn't mean we should abandon nuclear power or that if it wasn't for "Capital," this would have never have happened.

 

[droski]

yup

 

[Weezy]

hate to agree with gibbs, but a disaster like this (earthquake + tsunami) was predictable in a lifetime. obviously there was a screw up.

On what scale though? Because plants are suppose to plan for both as well, I just don't think their safety margins were above these magnitudes (as they should have been).

 

[MG1968]

On what scale though? Because plants are suppose to plan for both as well, I just don't think their safety margins were above these magnitudes (as they should have been).

how do you adequately plan for a 9.1 magnitude quake followed closely by a tsunami?

the fact that the plant survived at all is a testament to it's engineering and if not for the tsunami taking out the diesel generators that were powering the backup cooling systems, this wouldn't even be a story.

 

[droski]

how do you adequately plan for a 9.1 magnitude quake followed closely by a tsunami?

the fact that the plant survived at all is a testament to it's engineering and if not for the tsunami taking out the diesel generators that were powering the backup cooling systems, this wouldn't even be a story.

i'm sure there are ways to plan for such an event. i have no idea how much they cost though. they were informed that this facility couldn't withstand a high magnitude earthquake during the planning stage.

 

[VOLatile]

Especially when, IIRC, they didn't even think a 9.1 was possible in that area.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[rjd970]

how do you adequately plan for a 9.1 magnitude quake followed closely by a tsunami?

the fact that the plant survived at all is a testament to it's engineering and if not for the tsunami taking out the diesel generators that were powering the backup cooling systems, this wouldn't even be a story.

Correct.

Again, maybe they didn't see the need to build against a double earthquake/tsunami disaster. OK...but that was by design, it wasn't an "accident" that caused this. As MG stated above, the plant's redundant systems did in fact survive the earthquake from what I remember.

This was a perfect storm that was never supposed to happen, not somebody's screw-up.

 

[IPorange]

Correct.

Again, maybe they didn't see the need to build against a double earthquake/tsunami disaster. OK...but that was by design, it wasn't an "accident" that caused this. As MG stated above, the plant's redundant systems did in fact survive the earthquake from what I remember.

This was a perfect storm that was never supposed to happen, not somebody's screw-up.

Failures of human imagination, like many of our recent tragedies. Which is precisely why claiming that government can foresee all and do a far better job than capital alone does (which doesn't even happen, imo) is flawed.

 

[utgibbs]

There is no perfect system. A free society just happens to be the best solution. We are so scared of freedom because we think entities will act unethically, but regulation hasn't stopped those people from acting unethically so what purpose does it serve other than to restrict economic growth and promote "croney" capitalism?

I like what you are saying, but I'm not sure you shouldn't be taking a closer look outside your back door.

I certainly suggested no system. I suggested a cultural orientation.

As of right now, the people who have acted unethically, have been completely vindicated as they were bailed out and their power more deeply entrenched, and they have embarked in a "doom loop" (believe that is the phrase of Martin Wolf at the Financial Times) of doing the same damn thing over again.

 

[utgibbs]

Failures of human imagination, like many of our recent tragedies. Which is precisely why claiming that government can foresee all and do a far better job than capital alone does (which doesn't even happen, imo) is flawed.

Never said anything of the sort. In fact, I gave you 21 Jan 2010 and a Supreme Court decision to support the absurdity. The problem is an orientation directed by the supremacy of Capital in both private and public spheres. It is this orientation which is culpable.

A different orientation would recognize the risks. A different orientation with well-informed citizens may well decide nuclear is, indeed, a solution to their problems of the here and now. A different orientation might rightly decide nuclear is not the answer for an island country on the Ring of Fire. Or it might actually decide on what to do with its spent fuel, which is actually the biggest problem at Fukushima, and something that should have been planned from the outset.......

Again, the Capital orientation "decides" just keeping it in the open near the site because it cannot deal with externalities. And therein lies the ultimate proof of what I say....

And I think the vast preponderance of the evidence regarding the bold in your post is heavily on one side vs the other. And that is during a Capital orientation as well....

 

[MG1968]

how does this orientation come about gibbs? the revolution you speak of?

what about people (myself included) who don't buy into what you're selling? are we carted off to "re-education camps"? What if we continue to resist?