Jerry Green Question? Just Curious.

[BowlBrother85]

It is a postseason sport. People who think otherwise don't know basketball.

There are plenty of teams that lost 3 or less games in a year and had failures of a season due to coming up short in the postseason.

That is true up to a point. You do have to play well enough in the regular season to earn an NCAA Tournament bid.. unless, of course, you win your conference tournament. Not every team gets in. The 2013-14 Tennessee team barely did. They played in the First Four, and needed OT to beat Iowa to make it into the field of 64. If Tennessee finishes with a 16-14 record in the regular season, but then wins the NIT, is that considered a good season? I don't think so. The regular season matters... at least to some extent.

 

[cncchris33]

That is true up to a point. You do have to play well enough in the regular season to earn an NCAA Tournament bid.. unless, of course, you win your conference tournament. Not every team gets in. The 2013-14 Tennessee team barely did. They played in the First Four, and needed OT to beat Iowa to make it into the field of 64. If Tennessee finishes with a 16-14 record in the regular season, but then wins the NIT, is that considered a good season? I don't think so. The regular season matters... at least to some extent.

Agreed, and again, it's all relevant with regard to talent. On that team, we had 4 guys who made All-SEC teams in their careers in McRae (twice), Stokes (twice), JRich, and Maymon. That team should have made the NCAAT with room to spare, and instead found themselves waiting on pins and needles on Selection Sunday, and having to play the play-in game.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Agreed, and again, it's all relevant with regard to talent. On that team, we had 4 guys who made All-SEC teams in their careers in McRae (twice), Stokes (twice), JRich, and Maymon. That team should have made the NCAAT with room to spare, and instead found themselves waiting on pins and needles on Selection Sunday, and having to play the play-in game.

I remember going to a game that season and leaving at halftime, which I never do. It was in December against NC State - who wasn't that good themselves. I think NC State was also a First Four team that March. I remember that NC State had the lead 37-20 at halftime. Tennessee looked atrocious on offense at times that season. Cuonzo's system is slow and boring. Nothing comes easy. That game was unwatchable. Fwiw, Tennessee came back a little bit and lost 65-58.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Agreed, and again, it's all relevant with regard to talent. On that team, we had 4 guys who made All-SEC teams in their careers in McRae (twice), Stokes (twice), JRich, and Maymon. That team should have made the NCAAT with room to spare, and instead found themselves waiting on pins and needles on Selection Sunday, and having to play the play-in game.

Not debating your overall point, but not sure I agree with using the bolded as a barometer...Barnes 2nd team had 5 All-SEC guys on it at least and a 2x SEC POY, by your metric that team should’ve been S16 or better?

 

[cncchris33]

I remember going to a game that season and leaving at halftime, which I never do. It was in December against NC State - who wasn't that good themselves. I think NC State was also a First Four team that March. I remember that NC State had the lead 37-20 at halftime. Tennessee looked atrocious on offense at times that season. Cuonzo's system is slow and boring. Nothing comes easy. That game was unwatchable. Fwiw, Tennessee came back a little bit and lost 65-58.

I remember it as well. Our guards couldn't throw it in the ocean that night. McRae/JRich/Barton were a combined 7-32 shooting.

 

[k-town_king]

That is true up to a point. You do have to play well enough in the regular season to earn an NCAA Tournament bid.. unless, of course, you win your conference tournament. Not every team gets in. The 2013-14 Tennessee team barely did. They played in the First Four, and needed OT to beat Iowa to make it into the field of 64. If Tennessee finishes with a 16-14 record in the regular season, but then wins the NIT, is that considered a good season? I don't think so. The regular season matters... at least to some extent.

They made the NCAA so its a moot point. Also its relative to preseason expectations. A team not even ranked in the preseason wins 20 plus games and a few NCAA games then it is a good year.

Agreed, and again, it's all relevant with regard to talent. On that team, we had 4 guys who made All-SEC teams in their careers in McRae (twice), Stokes (twice), JRich, and Maymon. That team should have made the NCAAT with room to spare, and instead found themselves waiting on pins and needles on Selection Sunday, and having to play the play-in game.

Well going by that metric we should have went to the Final Four year three for Barnes. We should have made the tourney every year except the first.

Barnes had 5 NBA players on the year three squad.

 

[cncchris33]

Not debating your overall point, but not sure I agree with using the bolded as a barometer...Barnes 2nd team had 5 All-SEC guys on it at least and a 2x SEC POY, by your metric that team should’ve been S16 or better?

Typically, I'd agree that it isn't a proper barometer in a vacuum, but in this particular comparison, you have to compare apples to apples.

For starters, I only count 4 (Schofield, Williams, Bone, Fulk) from that 2016-17 team, not 5, and they were sophomore, freshman, freshman, freshman. All of them needed development and Fulk only played 10 games, so go ahead and throw him out.

In my example, McRae was a senior, Maymon was a 5th year senior, Stokes was a junior, and JRich was a junior. McRae and Stokes had already been All-SEC players the year before. Maymon, though zapped by his injury that forced him to redshirt the prior year, had been All-SEC the year before that. That 2013-14 team also had Robert Hubbs, whom I neglected to mention for the same reason as Fulk. He only played 12 games because of injury.

You also have to consider their recruiting rankings...
McRae ☆☆☆☆
Stokes ☆☆☆☆☆
Maymon ☆☆☆☆
JRich ☆☆☆

Schofield ☆☆☆
Williams ☆☆☆
Bone ☆☆☆
Fulk ☆☆☆

That first group of players was a little more ready-made to begin with. Three of them were top-50 players, and then were also on the tail end of their careers.

Using your example, the second group as a sophomore and 3 freshmen, knowing they would take time to develop is a little misleading. In my example, 3 of the 4 had already had All-SEC seasons.

 

[cncchris33]

They made the NCAA so its a moot point. Also its relative to preseason expectations. A team not even ranked in the preseason wins 20 plus games and a few NCAA games then it is a good year.


Well going by that metric we should have went to the Final Four year three for Barnes. We should have made the tourney every year except the first.

Barnes had 5 NBA players on the year three squad.

See the above post.

That team had one player who had proven to be an All-SEC player, let alone an NBA player at that point. Not to mention that team did go 26-9 and I think most people agree, that as a 3 seed, disappointed in the tournament with a loss, though an unlucky one, to a lesser talented team.

Don't present a faulty, disingenuous argument with me. It won't hold water.

 

[k-town_king]

See the above post.

That team had one player who had proven to be an All-SEC player, let alone an NBA player at that point.

Don't present a faulty, disingenuous argument with me. It won't hold water.

Zo had Stokes and Mcrae who became All Sec that year and had not been All Sec before. Maymon was hurt and never returned to All Sec level.

So we had no All SEC players going in to that year.

Barnes had more proven All SEC talent. He had Admiral and SEC POTY Grant Williams.

Matter of fact after more years to get established with three All SEC players and a returning SEC POTY Barnes did not get any further than Zo in the NCAA.

We do have actual facts.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Typically, I'd agree that it isn't a proper barometer in a vacuum, but in this particular comparison, you have to compare apples to apples.

For starters, I only count 4 (Schofield, Williams, Bone, Fulk) from that 2016-17 team, not 5, and they were sophomore, freshman, freshman, freshman. All of them needed development and Fulk only played 10 games, so go ahead and throw him out.

In my example, McRae was a senior, Maymon was a 5th year senior, Stokes was a junior, and JRich was a junior. McRae and Stokes had already been All-SEC players the year before. Maymon, though zapped by his injury that forced him to redshirt the prior year, had been All-SEC the year before that. That 2013-14 team also had Robert Hubbs, whom I neglected to mention for the same reason as Fulk. He only played 12 games because of injury.

You also have to consider their recruiting rankings...
McRae ☆☆☆☆
Stokes ☆☆☆☆☆
Maymon ☆☆☆☆
JRich ☆☆☆

Schofield ☆☆☆
Williams ☆☆☆
Bone ☆☆☆
Fulk ☆☆☆

That first group of players was a little more ready-made to begin with. Three of them were top-50 players, and then were also on the tail end of their careers.

Using your example, the second group as a sophomore and 3 freshmen, knowing they would take time to develop is a little misleading. In my example, 3 of the 4 had already had All-SEC seasons.

Laminate Turner won SEC 6POY, and Yves Pons SEC DPOY, so I would include them in receiving accolades...can’t remember if Bowden did or not. I get what you’re saying, was just saying that you can’t simply look at it that without looking at other factors as well.

 

[cncchris33]

Zo had Stokes and Mcrae who became All Sec that year and had not been All Sec before. Maymon was hurt and never returned to All Sec level.

So we had no All SEC players going in to that year.

Barnes had more proven All SEC talent. He had Admiral and SEC POTY Grant Williams.

We do have actual facts.

So Jordan McRae and Jarnell Stokes weren't All-SEC in 2012-13 (Zo's 2nd season) And Jeronne Maymon wasn't All-SEC in 2011-12 (Zo's 1st season)?

You may want to check those actual facts you think you have.

 

[cncchris33]

Laminate Turner won SEC 6POY, and Yves Pons SEC DPOY, so I would include them in receiving accolades...can’t remember if Bowden did or not. I get what you’re saying, was just saying that you can’t simply look at it that without looking at other factors as well.

I didn't mention all accolades, though. But even still, while Lamonte Turner was on that 2016-17 team you mentioned, Pons was not, so his DPOY award 3 years later isn't relevant, at all. Bowden received no conference accolades in his career.

The point remains, that while it isn't always a proper barometer to use career accolades as a barometer, in this case it certainly is. And comparing the higher ranked, already developed upperclassmen talent of the 2013-14 team in contrast with the underrated, developmental freshmen (and 1 sophomore) talent of the 2016-17 isn't an apples to apples comparison.

 

[k-town_king]

So Jordan McRae and Jarnell Stokes weren't All-SEC in 2012-13 (Zo's 2nd season) And Jeronne Maymon wasn't All-SEC in 2011-12 (Zo's 1st season)?

You may want to check those actual facts you think you have.

So Maymon wasn't hurt or did I misremember that? Did he ever become the same player preinjury? Hmm? I didn't think so.

Maybe I did look at it wrong.

Either way Barnes had more years with more ALL SEC and NBA talent and went no further than Zo. Zo also made the postseason EACH year with the same preseason expectations as Barnes. Barnes did not.

 

[cncchris33]

So Maymon wasn't hurt or did I misremember that? Did he ever become the same player preinjury? Hmm? I didn't think so.

Maybe I did look at it wrong.

Either way Barnes had more years with more ALL SEC and NBA talent and went no further than Zo. Zo also made the postseason EACH year with the same preseason expectations as Barnes. Barnes did not.

Fixed your above sentence for you.

And Maymon came back from that All-SEC season in 2011-12 (you know, the one you maybe looked at wrong) and played in 4 more games, averaged identical minutes (28 mpg), identical rebounds (8.1 rpg), and had a similar FG% (53.3%) in 2013-14. His drop from 12.7 ppg to 9.7 ppg was perhaps precipitated by playing beside one of those other All-SEC players you forgot about who had settled in to that post scoring role in Maymon's absence. Don't act like JM came back as a senior and was some utter liability on the floor.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Bruce Pearl disagrees. He stated, correctly, that Martin got more out of his roster than Bruce could have. Yes, Martin did not have the used car salesman personality that UT fans find so entertaining . But that should not absolve the UT fans from the deplorable treatment to which Cuonzo was subjected. By the way, Cuonzo decided to leave after being told by his wife that she was not going to remain married to an Uncle Tom and he had to grow a pair or else.

I don't doubt some redneck told his wife that. UT fans are just like probably every major fanbase out there, they have some racist dipsh**s. But overall the fanbase did support Martin and gave him more than one chance to win them over. Sure he wasn't Bruce and that was going to be hard for any coach to overcome, but his first 2 seasons TBA was still rocking. The last home game of 2011 where we beat Vandy and won the East was a sellout. The final game against Missouri the next season same thing. The problem was each season the slow start killed momentum and by his 3rd season when he did it again fans started to see the trend. All 3 seasons if we hadn't have taken half a season to get going we would have made the NCAAT all 3 and his 3rd season we would have easily been in.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

As far as Green, pretty much what has already been said. You can't deny his record and results but at the same time he did himself no favors with the fans and he didn't help himself or his rep as a "roll the ball out and let them play" guy with his collapses. He didn't strike anyone as a great Xs and Os guy, and he honestly didn't seem like he ever wanted to be at UT.

The funny part is he was replaced by Buzz Peterson, who desperately did want to be here but he was sadly an even worse coach and didn't have the talent Green had. But even then, Peterson still had enough talent that at least 2 if not 3 of his teams should have made the NCAAT if he was even remotely competent.

 

[Rickyvol77]

They made the NCAA so its a moot point. Also its relative to preseason expectations. A team not even ranked in the preseason wins 20 plus games and a few NCAA games then it is a good year.


Well going by that metric we should have went to the Final Four year three for Barnes. We should have made the tourney every year except the first.

Barnes had 5 NBA players on the year three squad.

Who’s accomplished more both at UT and their entire career?

Barnes and Pearl were much better coaches than Zo. He’s better than Buzz though!

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Who’s accomplished more both at UT and their entire career?

Barnes and Pearl were much better coaches than Zo. He’s better than Buzz though!

So are you and me, lol.

 

[PEPPERJAX]

Cuonzo is an average (at best) coach. His system is about as fun as nails across a chalkboard. And he left on his own accord, possibly because some rednecks got mad (that he wasn't Bruce Pearl).

Don't tell BTO.

 

[Chemvol]

The thing that really bothered me about Martin's teams was that they always needed a late season run just to try to get themselves in the NCAA conversation. The first two times they fell short and landed in the NIT. The third time (with his most veteran team) they barely made it with a berth in one of the play-in games.

 

[aWhiteLoftonChism]

Athletic Director Dickey offered the job to then Kansas coach Roy Williams who declined and suggested Green then the Oregon coach.

Tennessee had C.J. Black and Isiah Victor and Tony Harris and Charles Hathaway on that team that blew the North Carolina game.

Green said that Tennessee fans could go to Walmart if they did not want to go to the games.

Green's best recruit during his tenure at UT was Vincent Yarbrough and UT would have had Shawn Marion but Green was out of town at the time.

It would have been interesting to see how far Pearl or Barnes could have taken that team.

With the talent those teams had Barnes would’ve had a couple of final fours in my opinion. They were absolutely LOADED!

 

[aWhiteLoftonChism]

And that team had V. Yarbrough, R. Slay, Tony Harris, I. Victor, J. Higgins, M. Haislip, C. Hathaway, Harris Walker, and Terrence Woods. That might be the most talented 9-deep lineup in school history. Three McDonald's All-Americans (VY, Harris, Hathaway) another who was an SEC All-Freshman player (Victor), another who was All -SEC and a 1st rd draft pick (Haislip), and an SEC POY and 2x All-SEC player (Slay).

Don’t forget Brandon Wharton for a few years as well!

 

[aWhiteLoftonChism]

Kevin O'Neill left a pretty nice cupboard of talent for him... Brandon Wharton, Tony Harris, Isiah Victor, CJ Black, Rashard Lee, Charles Hathaway, DaShay Jones, Aaron Green. So he took over a much better job than what Tennessee basketball had been in about 15 years. There wasn't any NBA talent, but it was enough talent for just about any coach to make the NCAA Tournament with... and Jerry did.

The games I most fondly remember were finally winning in Rupp Arena in 1999, our two great wins over Florida in 2000 (especially the one at home), the Gators made the NCAA Tournament Championship Game that year.... and I remember the big win over UConn in the 2000 NCAA Tournament 2nd round.

The games that left me shaking my head were the very embarrassing loss to Missouri State in the 1999 NCAA Tournament, the 2nd half choke to North Carolina just after the UConn win and the 2nd half of the 2001 season where the team basically quit after a great start.

Off topic, but O'Neill leaving Tennessee for Northwestern in 1997 is the strangest career move I have ever seen from a college basketball coach. Even 23 years later, that still defies any logic.

I think there was plenty of NBA talent if they had been coached up even a little. Several players from this era said that practices were soft and they weren’t held accountable enough. A few have even said that Rick Barnes is the type of coach they needed. As far as O’Neil leaving I think he was a round peg in a square hole. He cursed and hollered an incredible amount and had one of the most slow, deliberate offenses I’ve ever seen. Having said that I do agree with you. He recruited his butt off, loaded the cupboard with in state talent, then left! It was strange

 

[Jravol78]

I think there was plenty of NBA talent if they had been coached up even a little. Several players from this era said that practices were soft and they weren’t held accountable enough. A few have even said that Rick Barnes is the type of coach they needed. As far as O’Neil leaving I think he was a round peg in a square hole. He cursed and hollered an incredible amount and had one of the most slow, deliberate offenses I’ve ever seen. Having said that I do agree with you. He recruited his butt off, loaded the cupboard with in state talent, then left! It was strange

I will always remember Oneil standing on a chair @ Vandys Crap Coliseum after beating the commodes and pumping his fists at the crowd . IIRC he said an old Vandy blue hair gave him the bird so he gave her 2 of them right back. Coach Oneil is alright in my book for that alone

 

[cncchris33]

Don’t forget Brandon Wharton for a few years as well!

Yeah, I was talking specifically about that one year (2000-01). Wharton graduated two years before, but he was a really good player.