Jerry Green question

#51
#51
Originally posted by Vol67@Oct 18, 2005 7:18 PM
How many drug test do you think Reggie Cobb failed at UT?

Hint: more than 4
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I have not condoned the discipline of our football coaches. I think that plays a huge part in the disastourous season we are having. I have not condoned the discipline under Mears. I have no idea what type of discipine he had. One poster on here was a manager during Jerry Green's tenure at UTK. He has pointed out a couple accounts of his lack of discipline. First hand accounts are not good enough for you? Not to mention, there is no way you paid close attention and followed the team during Jerry Green's years and did not SEE the lack of discipline. I played against Vincent Y. in high school and you saw the same lack of discipline from his high school team. In '98 we beat Cleveland at Cleveland and that team had 3 D1 level players on it. We should not have even been close in that game. But, Rhodes was a similar coach to Green. No discipline. Its a situation where the coaches get scared that if they discipline the players they might get mad at them. They see the players as their "meal ticket" and don't want to get them mad.
 
#52
#52
Originally posted by volinbham@Oct 18, 2005 8:15 PM
Including a TV or 2  :biggrin2:
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:lolabove:
 
#53
#53
Hey panthers_forever, I can't wait til your team comes to Cookeville to play Tennessee Tech. Should a a great game, I'm just so glad we got it at home.
 
#54
#54
Originally posted by cookeville_vol@Oct 19, 2005 10:55 AM
Hey panthers_forever, I can't wait til your team comes to Cookeville to play Tennessee Tech. Should a a great game, I'm just so glad we got it at home.


yeah we're assuming we got a nice payoff to come there but Jeter didn't exactly have an easy time making a schedule after the Sweet 16 run but oh well, a win's a win. I wouldn't be surprised if Pearl just happens to be in the neighbor for that game (assuming UT doesn't play that night, I don't know your schedule that well). either way it should be fun to see the impact Jeter's 2 best recruits, Kevin Massiah and Tyrone Young, have this year. Especially Young, that kid has the potential to be a show-stopper.
 
#55
#55
I'm still a Jerry Green fan...I've never had more fun at the Tommy Bol than under his reign.
 
#56
#56
Originally posted by allvol@Oct 18, 2005 4:54 PM
The only "official" reports I ever read regarding drug use by UT players was Harris Walker.  Had not heard any of the Terence Woods allegations.  The quotes I read said that he left because he was loyal to Green and he had a better oppty to start somewhere else.  If you guys have more official articles or anything like that .. I've been wanting to read it since Green was fired.  That has been part of my frustration as a fan is that so far the only "news" has been internet rumours and word of mouth.  For all I know that stuff spread on the internet to justify his firing.  If someone could actually prove to me that Green was letting the players do whatever they wanted I might change my opinion of him.  However, Ray Mears is still regarded highly and Bernard King got away with everything while he was at UT.
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Some of on this board have more connections than you think and have more inside info than you can ever know. You accounts are what you've read in the paper and news media ours are facts from inside the program!
 
#57
#57
Originally posted by Vol67@Oct 19, 2005 9:50 PM
Some of on this board have more connections than you think and have more inside info than you can ever know. You accounts are what you've read in the paper and news media ours are facts from inside the program!
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I know Ron Davis used to roll big blunts when he was a Foot-ballah!!
 
#58
#58
Look, winning is fun, what can I say? As I recall, the year we went to the Sweet 16, we were 3 minutes away from an Elite 8 appearance (first in school history), had something like a 7 point lead on a very tough UNC team, and managed to blow it.

History as I see it:
Kevin O'Neill: had about two halfway decent players during his tenure (Brandon Wharton and Steve Hamer)... potty-mouthed Yankee who didn't exactly get along with the good ol' boy network at the athletic department. His teams, though, played hard, especially on defense.... if I remember correctly, the beginning of the end for him was the worst loss in UT hoops history, I think Kentucky laid something like a 60 point whipping on us in his last season. I personally would have loved to see what he could have done with the talent Green squandered.

Jerry Green: Statistically, a great success, and it's hard to argue with numbers. The tricky thing about Green is that, during his tenure, Tennessee had, for two seasons (his last four years), legit Final Four talent for the first and only time in school history. Marcus Haislip, when interested, was a terrific, dominant player. Same with Slay. You'd be hard-pressed to come up with a stronger starting five in UT history than Tony Harris, Jon Higgins, Vincent Yarbrough, Marcus Haislip, and Isiah Victor. I remember the Kentucky game where "injured" Harris did a 50-yard sprint down the sideline in Olympic time to get into that melee with the UK bench. (I'll say this for Tony Harris - thug though he may be, he was one of the quickest players with the ball I've EVER seen, period. Unfortunately, although there's no I in Team, there sure is an I in Tony Harris - selfish player, took far too many bad, low-percentage shots.)

Buzz Peterson: You know, the warning sign should have been going, what, 14-15 with essentially the same team that Green left, minus Harris, I believe. I met the guy; seemed very friendly, affable, apparently a solid human being. (or is he? his pithy comments after leaving UT and rumors of certain recruiting improprieties leave this one up in the air...) What bothered me most about Buzz is that he recruited some solid players, but was unable to develop them. C.J. Watson has been our starting point guard for 3 years now under Buzz, and has been pretty solid, above average certainly, but never seemed to get any better... and if you recall, he was Buzz's prize recruit; a national Top 100 prospect out of Las Vegas, certainly the bluest chip we've pulled in since Harris or Yarbrough. Brandon Crump had a ton of potential, and never lived up to it. Stanley Asumnu is one of the best overall athletes UT hoops has ever seen, and Buzz couldn't make him into a basketball player in three years. Then there's the body count on guys who left... anyone remember Derek Stribling, John Winchester and the great Boomer Herndon?

Addendum: Buzz was, I believe, 1-7 vs. Kentucky in his four seasons here, and that's just not going to get it done. What's really sad is that he could have easily been 4-4 had his teams not choked like rats. Also had two terrific chances to beat Rick Pitino's Louisville teams in '02 and '03 and blew them, too. Buzzball seemed to involve a unique ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (a case in point: the Nebraska game at the Tommy Bowl last season, with all the missed free throws down the stretch. Stunned silence; you could have heard a pin drop at the end of that game. I was there.) Slag on ol' Jerry all you want, but he had four seasons, four NCAA bids with a Sweet 16 appearance. Buzz had four years, two NIT bids, both resulting in first-round losses.

Facts are facts.

Cheers,
Downtown Vol


 
#59
#59
Originally posted by DowntownVol@Oct 20, 2005 2:50 AM
Look, winning is fun, what can I say?   As I recall, the year we went to the Sweet 16, we were 3 minutes away from an Elite 8 appearance (first in school history), had something like a 7 point lead on a very tough UNC team, and managed to blow it.

History as I see it:
Kevin O'Neill:  had about two halfway decent players during his tenure (Brandon Wharton and Steve Hamer)...  potty-mouthed Yankee who didn't exactly get along with the good ol' boy network at the athletic department.    His teams, though, played hard, especially on defense.... if I remember correctly, the beginning of the end for him was the worst loss in UT hoops history, I think Kentucky laid something like a 60 point whipping on us in his last season.    I personally would have loved to see what he could have done with the talent Green squandered.

Jerry Green:  Statistically, a great success, and it's hard to argue with numbers.   The tricky thing about Green is that, during his tenure, Tennessee had, for two seasons (his last four years), legit Final Four talent for the first and only time in school history.   Marcus Haislip, when interested, was a terrific, dominant player.   Same with Slay.   You'd be hard-pressed to come up with a stronger starting five in UT history than Tony Harris, Jon Higgins, Vincent Yarbrough, Marcus Haislip, and Isiah Victor.    I remember the Kentucky game where "injured" Harris did a 50-yard sprint down the sideline in Olympic time to get into that melee with the UK bench.  (I'll say this for Tony Harris - thug though he may be, he was one of the quickest players with the ball I've EVER seen, period.   Unfortunately, although there's no I in Team, there sure is an I in Tony Harris - selfish player, took far too many bad, low-percentage shots.)    

Buzz Peterson:  You know, the warning sign should have been going, what, 14-15 with essentially the same team that Green left, minus Harris, I believe.    I met the guy; seemed very friendly, affable, apparently a solid human being.   (or is he?  his pithy comments after leaving UT and rumors of certain recruiting improprieties leave this one up in the air...)   What bothered me most about Buzz is that he recruited some solid players, but was unable to develop them.   C.J. Watson has been our starting point guard for 3 years now under Buzz, and has been pretty solid, above average certainly, but never seemed to get any better... and if you recall, he was Buzz's prize recruit; a national Top 100 prospect out of Las Vegas, certainly the bluest chip we've pulled in since Harris or Yarbrough.    Brandon Crump had a ton of potential, and never lived up to it.    Stanley Asumnu is one of the best overall athletes UT hoops has ever seen, and Buzz couldn't make him into a basketball player in three years.    Then there's the body count on guys who left... anyone remember Derek Stribling, John Winchester and the great Boomer Herndon?  

Addendum: Buzz was, I believe, 1-7 vs. Kentucky in his four seasons here, and that's just not going to get it done.   What's really sad is that he could have easily been 4-4 had his teams not choked like rats.   Also had two terrific chances to beat Rick Pitino's Louisville teams in '02 and '03 and blew them, too.    Buzzball seemed to involve a unique ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (a case in point: the Nebraska game at the Tommy Bowl last season, with all the missed free throws down the stretch.   Stunned silence; you could have heard a pin drop at the end of that game.   I was there.)   Slag on ol' Jerry all you want, but he had four seasons, four NCAA bids with a Sweet 16 appearance.   Buzz had four years, two NIT bids, both resulting in first-round losses.

Facts are facts.

Cheers,
Downtown Vol
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Harris, Higgins, Yarbrough, Victor, and Haislip were never the starting five. The 60 point loss to Kentucky was in the SEC tournament when Wade Houston was the coach. While I have made my feelings about Jerry Green abundantly clear, I will say we might be overestimating the talent on those teams. It's not like any of those guys are exactly setting the League on fire. If they were all that talented, at least a couple of them would have found NBA success. As a group, they were a very talented college basketball team. Let's just not confuse them with the kind of talent UNC won the championship with this year.
 
#60
#60
You are correct, sir, the thrashing by the Cats was during the dark Wade Houston years.... my apologies.

replace Haislip with C.J. Black, perhaps, and I'm fairly certain THOSE five started (Black was last seen in the NBA developmental league.... Haislip and Yarbrough were both drafted and have done very little in the NBA, to my knowledge... Higgins and Slay both went to Europe and played/are still playing there.... and Tony Harris pretty much dropped off the face of the planet; again, correct me if I'm wrong.) The point I'm making is, Jerry Green certainly had the strongest collection of talent UT hoops has seen since the Ernie and Bernie show... I suppose you could make an argument for the early 80's DeVoe-coached Dale Ellis-led teams.... or Tony White/Dyron Nix. And with that talent, Green's four trips to the Big Dance netted a tournament record of 3-4.

Wasn't it Green's final season (or was it his third?) that we started something like 13-0, culminating in a thrashing of Syracuse in the Carrier Dome on national TV, and cracked the AP Top Five for the first time in school history?

I'll admit that after that first game of last season, when they convincingly beat Stanford in the Maui Invitational, I was ready to drink the Buzz Peterson kool-aid. I was still ready to drink it when they hung tough with eventual national champs UNC. I was convinced that Buzz was finally going to get us back to the Big Dance (which, as I recall, was pretty much the mark that Buzz needed to reach to keep his job, so it was said at the beginning of the season), and it turned out to be his worst team, statistically.

I'll also be the first to admit that UT hoops is never, ever going to be in the Kentucky/Duke/UNC class. "Football school," right, we've all heard that a billion times. But there's no reason to expect less than a competitive team that reaches some form of postseason play on a consistent basis.







 
#61
#61
Originally posted by DowntownVol@Oct 20, 2005 7:47 PM
You are correct, sir, the thrashing by the Cats was during the dark Wade Houston years....  my apologies.

replace Haislip with C.J. Black, perhaps, and I'm fairly certain THOSE five started (Black was last seen in the NBA developmental league.... Haislip and Yarbrough were both drafted and have done very little in the NBA, to my knowledge... Higgins and Slay both went to Europe and played/are still playing there.... and Tony Harris pretty much dropped off the face of the planet; again, correct me if I'm wrong.)    The point I'm making is, Jerry Green certainly had the strongest collection of talent UT hoops has seen since the Ernie and Bernie show... I suppose you could make an argument for the early 80's DeVoe-coached Dale Ellis-led teams.... or Tony White/Dyron Nix.    And with that talent, Green's four trips to the Big Dance netted a tournament record of 3-4.

Wasn't it Green's final season (or was it his third?) that we started something like 13-0, culminating in a thrashing of Syracuse in the Carrier Dome on national TV, and cracked the AP Top Five for the first time in school history?

I'll admit that after that first game of last season, when they convincingly beat Stanford in the Maui Invitational, I was ready to drink the Buzz Peterson kool-aid.  I was still ready to drink it when they hung tough with eventual national champs UNC.    I was convinced that Buzz was finally going to get us back to the Big Dance (which, as I recall, was pretty much the mark that Buzz needed to reach to keep his job, so it was said at the beginning of the season), and it turned out to be his worst team, statistically. 

I'll also be the first to admit that UT hoops is never, ever going to be in the Kentucky/Duke/UNC class.    "Football school," right, we've all heard that a billion times.  But there's no reason to expect less than a competitive team that reaches some form of postseason play on a consistent basis.
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I would almost absolutely agree with you about UT having no chance of joining the UK/Duke/UNC club, except for the sudden emergence of Texas as a national power. Prior to Rick Barnes taking over in Austin, I dare say our basketball history was superior to that of the Longhorns. The right coach makes an immeasurable difference in college basketball. I do think it is absolutely reasonable to expect UT to make the NCAA tournament on a consistent basis.
 
#62
#62
Anybody catch Pearl on the Sports Animal yesterday? If he is as good on the court as he is off, I think we got ourself a coach!
 
#63
#63
It is your opinion. And, it is an opinion that is shared by many. I mean it is the "easy" opinion to have. But, I believe UTK Men's Basketball can very well be in the class of Duke/UNC/UK. There is no legitimate reason that over time UTK cannot get there. UTK has much, much more working for it then against it in reach that status. The money, facilities, campus, and now the coach to get it done. You just have to have patience. But, in 6-8 years its is very possible for UTK Men's Basetball to be at the level of UNC/Duke/UK.
 
#64
#64
Originally posted by hatvol96@Oct 21, 2005 6:53 AM
The right coach makes an immeasurable difference in college basketball.


absolutely, look what pitino's done @ louisville. had pearl stayed here there's no reason we could not have become the next Gonzaga w/in a few years. Luckily we got a guy who's a fantastic recruiter but zero head coaching experience. once he gets his feet wet w/ experience we should be one of the top mid-majors in the country. either way watch us (hopefully) beat Memphis on 11/15 and then 'bama a few days later.
 
#65
#65
The fact that Tennessee may never join the upper elite should show that having "final four talent" does not automatically equal a trip to the final four. There are alot of top teams each year that don't make the elite eight or final four. Experience at that high level is key to an upward climb of a program. It is very difficult to make the final four... even if you have talent. One "down" year should not immediately lead to a doom and gloom mentality. The first 3 years of Green's tenure, the Vols climbed steadily higher. His first season, the Vols ended a long drought by reaching the NCAA tournament.... His 2nd season, the Vols won the SEC East and went to the 2nd round of the NCAA tourney... his 3rd season, the Vols won the SEC outright, won more games in a season than any team in Tennessee history, and made the sweet 16 beating UCONN along the way... but in his 4th season, with lots of preseason expectations, the Vols faltered down the stretch of the season and lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament (still won 20 games).

I just believe that he should have been given a few more years to see if his 4th season was an anomaly or if the program really was in a downward spiral. By firing him, the administrators all but assured the downward spiral. With the talent returning for what would have been Green's 5th season, I would have liked to see if the Vols returned to the level of his 3rd season.... but we'll never know.... all we got was Buzz taking a talented team and going 15-16.

If the same bar was set for ALL the other coaches at Tennessee, Phil Fulmer would already have been fired.
 
#66
#66
Football school? This is a football country. Every school, in my opinion, including UK, is a football school. It's just that some are better at basketball. KY, in my opinion, is a football state that has been better throughout the years at basketball. UNC, Duke? Great basketball tradition, yes, but they're considered basketball schools just because they can't win consistently at football. So, yeah, UT is a "football school," but that should not be seen as a ceiling on the basketball program. OK, enough rambling by me.
 
#67
#67
Originally posted by allvol@Oct 21, 2005 10:22 AM
The fact that Tennessee may never join the upper elite should show that having "final four talent" does not automatically equal a trip to the final four.  There are alot of top teams each year that don't make the elite eight or final four.  Experience at that high level is key to an upward climb of a program. It is very difficult to make the final four... even if you have talent.  One "down" year should not immediately lead to a doom and gloom mentality.  The first 3 years of Green's tenure, the Vols climbed steadily higher.  His first season, the Vols ended a long drought by reaching the NCAA tournament.... His 2nd season, the Vols won the SEC East and went to the 2nd round of the NCAA tourney... his 3rd season, the Vols won the SEC outright, won more games in a season than any team in Tennessee history, and made the sweet 16 beating UCONN along the way... but in his 4th season, with lots of preseason expectations, the Vols faltered down the stretch of the season and lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament (still won 20 games).

I just believe that he should have been given a few more years to see if his 4th season was an anomaly or if the program really was in a downward spiral.  By firing him, the administrators all but assured the downward spiral.  With the talent returning for what would have been Green's 5th season, I would have liked to see if the Vols returned to the level of his 3rd season.... but we'll never know.... all we got was Buzz taking a talented team and going 15-16.

If the same bar was set for ALL the other coaches at Tennessee, Phil Fulmer would already have been fired.
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Fulmer has a National championship. Did Green win one that I forgot?
 
#68
#68
Green should have never been hired! he was an idiot!
allvol - you go piss off your boss then your bosses boss and all your customers all the while letting the workers under you do whatever they please and see how long you keep your job by turning out a product that only last half the time it is expected to. He deserved no more time and deserved to be fired. Most REAL fans of UT basketball is glad he's gone. Now if we can just get Hamilton to join him
 
#69
#69
Originally posted by allvol@Oct 21, 2005 11:22 AM
The fact that Tennessee may never join the upper elite should show that having "final four talent" does not automatically equal a trip to the final four.  There are alot of top teams each year that don't make the elite eight or final four.  Experience at that high level is key to an upward climb of a program. It is very difficult to make the final four... even if you have talent.  One "down" year should not immediately lead to a doom and gloom mentality.  The first 3 years of Green's tenure, the Vols climbed steadily higher.  His first season, the Vols ended a long drought by reaching the NCAA tournament.... His 2nd season, the Vols won the SEC East and went to the 2nd round of the NCAA tourney... his 3rd season, the Vols won the SEC outright, won more games in a season than any team in Tennessee history, and made the sweet 16 beating UCONN along the way... but in his 4th season, with lots of preseason expectations, the Vols faltered down the stretch of the season and lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament (still won 20 games).

I just believe that he should have been given a few more years to see if his 4th season was an anomaly or if the program really was in a downward spiral.  By firing him, the administrators all but assured the downward spiral.  With the talent returning for what would have been Green's 5th season, I would have liked to see if the Vols returned to the level of his 3rd season.... but we'll never know.... all we got was Buzz taking a talented team and going 15-16.

If the same bar was set for ALL the other coaches at Tennessee, Phil Fulmer would already have been fired.
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AGAIN SMART GUY WHERE WERE THE GUARDS ON THAT TEAM?

GONE FOR FAILING DRUG TEST REPEATEDLY!
 
#70
#70
Originally posted by allvol@Oct 18, 2005 4:44 PM
I know this is a basketball thread.... but why are we discussing basketball during the 3rd Saturday in October?
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Nothing wrong with that bro! :devilsmoke: BTW you had some nice posts in this thread! :matrix:
 
#71
#71
I would almost absolutely agree with you about UT having no chance of joining the UK/Duke/UNC club, except for the sudden emergence of Texas as a national power. Prior to Rick Barnes taking over in Austin, I dare say our basketball history was superior to that of the Longhorns. The right coach makes an immeasurable difference in college basketball. I do think it is absolutely reasonable to expect UT to make the NCAA tournament on a consistent basis.


We have the money and facilities, granted. I want to believe we have the right coach, but then again, when we hired Buzz, pretty much everyone believed he was the man who was going to take us to the upper echelon of college basketball. Clearly, he wasn't. I am very impressed with Bruce Pearl thus far, in regard to his attitude, work ethic, relationship with the media, recruiting, etc.

What I'm not convinced of is fan support. Texas was cited as an example of a football school who has made the transition into a consistently winning basketball program - a good point, granted, but Texas is a colossal school with something like 50,000 undergrads. The Tommy Bowl is barely more than half-full for even SEC home games, and that was the case during the more prosperous Jerry Green years. (with the exception of the Kentucky game, as the Big Blue Nation brings about 5,000 or so of their own fans, who are louder and more vocal, sadly, than the 12,000 UT fans.) Also, Rick Pitino is a legend throughout the state of Kentucky, and inherited a Louisville program with a deep winning tradition (2 National Titles under Denny Crum). I think the biggest challenge facing Pearl is whether or not he can generate some genuine excitement around the men's basketball program (which, mind you, is not only competing against the football team, but the most successful women's basketball program of all time!) I wish him the best of luck, and I for one will do my best to get to as many games this winter as possible. Hope to see a lot of you there.

Cheers,
Downtown Vol
 
#72
#72
Originally posted by DowntownVol@Oct 21, 2005 9:23 PM
We have the money and facilities, granted.  I want to believe we have the right coach, but then again, when we hired Buzz, pretty much everyone believed he was the man who was going to take us to the upper echelon of college basketball.  Clearly, he wasn't.  I am very impressed with Bruce Pearl thus far, in regard to his attitude, work ethic, relationship with the media, recruiting, etc.   

What I'm not convinced of is fan support.  Texas was cited as an example of a football school who has made the transition into a consistently winning basketball program - a good point, granted, but Texas is a colossal school with something like 50,000 undergrads.    The Tommy Bowl is barely more than half-full for even SEC home games, and that was the case during the more prosperous Jerry Green years.  (with the exception of the Kentucky game, as the Big Blue Nation brings about 5,000 or so of their own fans, who are louder and more vocal, sadly, than the 12,000 UT fans.)  Also, Rick Pitino is a legend throughout the state of Kentucky, and inherited a Louisville program with a deep winning tradition (2 National Titles under Denny Crum).    I think the biggest challenge facing Pearl is whether or not he can generate some genuine excitement around the men's basketball program (which, mind you, is not only competing against the football team, but the most successful women's basketball program of all time!)    I wish him the best of luck, and I for one will do my best to get to as many games this winter as possible.  Hope to see a lot of you there.

Cheers,
Downtown Vol
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The issue about the size of the undergrad enrollment is relevant, but I would almost guarantee, until at least the Tom Penders years, we consistently outdrew Texas in basketball. I am specifically talking about the pre-TBA days, because the Erwin Center and SAC are comparable in seating. I'm not trying to make myself out to be a genius, but I never thought Buzz was a good hire and most people whose opinion I respect about basketball felt the same way. He did nothing spectacular at Appy State, then took a Tulsa team that had a good nucleus of players coming back from an Elite Eight team and led them to the NIT. My gut says Pearl is a very good hire. My only fear is that, WHEN he succeeds here, a Big East school will come courting him.
 

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