Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson are CLEARLY the 2 best QBs in the 2018 NFL Draft

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Mmmmmmm.......yeah.....pretty sure given the context the "don't know anything" wasn't referring to "TIME SPECIFIC" predictions. You stated you'd admit you knew nothing about player evaluations. In fact, let me that find that one for you.

No. That's simply your assumption. I used to make a lot of specific predictions back then. Stuff like what round Dobbs would get drafted, what game he would take over for Big Ben, etc. It was those time specific predictions that lost me the avatar bet. After those misses I learned that "I didn't know anything" about making those type of predictions. Its why I don't do it anymore.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Wow, come back through here and D4H is in rare form. Out of curiosity I looked around from another angle on this regarding Kaaya and this injury thing D4h is clinging to like a drowning person to a piece of driftwood. (It's a matter of absolute and irrefutable record Kaaya was relegated to nobody status in short order by multiple teams, precisely why appeals to comparisons with Brady or Warner hold no sway whatsoever in the discussion)

The dearth of information regarding this "surgery" is astounding. Trying to actively look for anything is pretty much fruitless. That it happened at all is basically limited to a few social media type references. So I tried another approach. We all know that the Bengals acquired him AFTER the surgery so what did it look like from Cincy's POV? Some examples:

Brad Kaaya News

Not even a mention of injury, much less some kind of major spinal surgery.

Bengals Acquire Kaaya on Waivers

So bengals.com talks about the new QB and again, nothing about any degree of injury whatsoever other than citing being on injured reserve previously.

Bengals Claim Intriguing Young Talent To Potentially Play Alongside Andy Dalton, A.J. Green

So the most we can get is just a blurb about "back injury" and injured reserve. Still, not exactly making a headline about a health/recovery issue being a concern.

Bengals claim Brad Kaaya off waivers from Colts

Again, injured reserve but no mention of surgery or ongoing medical concerns of any kind.

There's more of the same. Whatever procedure Kaaya underwent it apparently wasn't even worth mentioning(!) when discussing him as an incoming player. That's a fantastically underwhelming linchpin on which to base the demise of a career that was, by every possible demonstrable observation, already a smoking hole in the ground.

He was a 6th round pick who bounced around on practice squads as a rookie. I doubt many in the media were that interested in him. Its why the only sources that mentioned the "spinal surgery" were from the University of Miami.

 

[hndog609]

He was a 6th round pick who bounced around on practice squads as a rookie. I doubt many in the media were that interested in him. Its why the only sources that mentioned the "spinal surgery" were from the University of Miami.

If you mean it wasn't going to make Sportcenter that a 6th round nothingburger was having surgery you're making sense. Not the kind of sense where you'd be wanting to point out a predicted "surefire franchise QB" was being so unworthy of mention by everyone but let's table that for now since it's still burying the lead.

The elephant, not merely in the room but sitting on your head wearing a "D4H said Derrick Henry would be a huge bust." T-shirt, is that we aren't discussing "many in the media". We are discussing people specifically writing up about that specific player trying to make a go of it on a new team. Big (or hell, even little, or in fact any) injury concerns would do well to find themselves mentioned somewhere. In fact, we're in many instances talking about people specifically doing write ups for that team. You know, exactly the writers and fans that might be interested in supposed career threatening surgeries.

Here's how this Kaaya thing is being treated by literally everyone I can find to cite regarding Kaaya post injury.

Reality- Brad Kaaya has been claimed off waivers by the Bengals. Has never taken a real snap and already been waived more times than a parade queen's hand but will be given a go and see if he can catch on and be of use somewhere...likely the practice squad.

D4H- That gamer Brad Kaaya, a wildly underappreciated young talent, coming off what could only possibly be a career threatening spinal surgery, will make his bid to beat the odds despite this great medical issue that inexplicably literally nobody, including the team that released or acquired him, can be bothered to even acknowledge.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

If you mean it wasn't going to make Sportcenter that a 6th round nothingburger was having surgery you're making sense. Not the kind of sense where you'd be wanting to point out a predicted "surefire franchise QB" was being so unworthy of mention by everyone but let's table that for now since it's still burying the lead.

The elephant, not merely in the room but sitting on your head wearing a "D4H said Derrick Henry would be a huge bust." T-shirt, is that we aren't discussing "many in the media". We are discussing people specifically writing up about that specific player trying to make a go of it on a new team. Big (or hell, even little, or in fact any) injury concerns would do well to find themselves mentioned somewhere. In fact, we're in many instances talking about people specifically doing write ups for that team. You know, exactly the writers and fans that might be interested in supposed career threatening surgeries.

Here's how this Kaaya thing is being treated by literally everyone I can find to cite regarding Kaaya post injury.

Reality- Brad Kaaya has been claimed off waivers by the Bengals. Has never taken a real snap and already been waived more times than a parade queen's hand but will be given a go and see if he can catch on and be of use somewhere...likely the practice squad.

D4H- That gamer Brad Kaaya, a wildly underappreciated young talent, coming off what could only possibly be a career threatening spinal surgery, will make his bid to beat the odds despite this great medical issue that inexplicably literally nobody, including the team that released or acquired him, can be bothered to even acknowledge.

Lol.....wait he said this?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

If you mean it wasn't going to make Sportcenter that a 6th round nothingburger was having surgery you're making sense. Not the kind of sense where you'd be wanting to point out a predicted "surefire franchise QB" was being so unworthy of mention by everyone but let's table that for now since it's still burying the lead.

The elephant, not merely in the room but sitting on your head wearing a "D4H said Derrick Henry would be a huge bust." T-shirt, is that we aren't discussing "many in the media". We are discussing people specifically writing up about that specific player trying to make a go of it on a new team. Big (or hell, even little, or in fact any) injury concerns would do well to find themselves mentioned somewhere. In fact, we're in many instances talking about people specifically doing write ups for that team. You know, exactly the writers and fans that might be interested in supposed career threatening surgeries.

Here's how this Kaaya thing is being treated by literally everyone I can find to cite regarding Kaaya post injury.

Reality- Brad Kaaya has been claimed off waivers by the Bengals. Has never taken a real snap and already been waived more times than a parade queen's hand but will be given a go and see if he can catch on and be of use somewhere...likely the practice squad.

D4H- That gamer Brad Kaaya, a wildly underappreciated young talent, coming off what could only possibly be a career threatening spinal surgery, will make his bid to beat the odds despite this great medical issue that inexplicably literally nobody, including the team that released or acquired him, can be bothered to even acknowledge.

Actually no. I'm not trying to tell you Kaaya would have been great if not for the injury. He was not a prospect I was sold on like Dobbs, Lamar, and Allen. He was more in the Josh Rosen class who you see I don't go out of my way to defend that much.

I have simply cited that injury as a possible reason why he's not in the league. You guys are the ones who have gone crazy over it. You are so desperate for me to be wrong that you have guys acting like spinal surgery is no big deal. Or in your case it must not be that big a deal if journalists didn't do a cover story on it. I typically don't see practice squad players having pieces written on them that often.

I honestly have no idea what happened to the kid. Nor do I care that much. All I know is he's essentially been outta the league since that reported spinal surgery. You might have wanted more sources but I am more than fine with the 247sports Miami Hurricanes site reporting on it. I think its safe to assume that played a factor in his disappearance since its not that common to see a young QB with Kaaya's pedigree totally disappear from the league that quickly.

 

[hndog609]

Lol.....wait he said this?

Oh yeah, scrub too. This place is awash with "didn't age well" proclamations from that guy.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Oh yeah, scrub too. This place is awash with "didn't age well" proclamations from that guy.

That's why I laugh so much when he touts when he's right, because for every one he gets right, there's like 5 he was terribly wrong on. Like how's that Pro Bowl career of John Kelly going?

 

[hndog609]

Actually no. I'm not trying to tell you Kaaya would have been great if not for the injury. He was not a prospect I was sold on like Dobbs, Lamar, and Allen. He was more in the Josh Rosen class who you see I don't go out of my way to defend that much.

I have simply cited that injury as a possible reason why he's not in the league. You guys are the ones who have gone crazy over it. You are so desperate for me to be wrong that you have guys acting like spinal surgery is no big deal. Or in your case it must not be that big a deal if journalists didn't do a cover story on it. I typically don't see practice squad players having pieces written on them that often.

I honestly have no idea what happened to the kid. Nor do I care that much. All I know is he's essentially been outta the league since that reported spinal surgery. You might have wanted more sources but I am more than fine with the 247sports Miami Hurricanes site reporting on it. I think its safe to assume that played a factor in his disappearance since its not that common to see a young QB with Kaaya's pedigree totally disappear from the league that quickly.

What kind of strawman silliness was that opening addressing? Literally nobody has has asserted anything about greatness or player comparisons. You unambiguously described Kaaya as a "surefire franchise QB". Nothing in any way even remotely supports that contention.

It's hilarious you think there's any desperation on the part of anyone on this side of the conversation. Everything... EVERYTHING...supports Kaaya was a nobody player before some injury and that any such injury was not worthy of mentioning by the very people charged with reporting on the player. This brings us to the next huge strawman. Nobody is talking about a "cover story". How about a story (out of many) that's already being written include, you know, ANYTHING about something that's as serious as you tenaciously insist this procedure must have been. You're selling the idea that the onus is on everybody else to quantify the lack of severity. It's a slick attempt to dodge that the onus is on you to demonstrate otherwise. Nobody is saying there wasn't "some" kind of back issue with "some" kind of surgery taking place. In the total absence of anything that describes or even acknowledges a health issue from precisely the people charged with reporting just that sort of thing on an incoming player why should anyone simply make the assumption that was the limiting factor?

If Kaaya had done anything (pay attention here...annnyyything) prior to whatever procedure took place it could change the perception. He didn't.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

What kind of strawman silliness was that opening addressing? Literally nobody has has asserted anything about greatness or player comparisons. You unambiguously described Kaaya as a "surefire franchise QB". Nothing in any way even remotely supports that contention.

It's hilarious you think there's any desperation on the part of anyone on this side of the conversation. Everything... EVERYTHING...supports Kaaya was a nobody player before some injury and that any such injury was not worthy of mentioning by the very people charged with reporting on the player. This brings us to the next huge strawman. Nobody is talking about a "cover story". How about a story (out of many) that's already being written include, you know, ANYTHING about something that's as serious as you tenaciously insist this procedure must have been. You're selling the idea that the onus is on everybody else to quantify the lack of severity. It's a slick attempt to dodge that the onus is on you to demonstrate otherwise. Nobody is saying there wasn't "some" kind of back issue with "some" kind of surgery taking place. In the total absence of anything that describes or even acknowledges a health issue from precisely the people charged with reporting just that sort of thing on an incoming player why should anyone simply make the assumption that was the limiting factor?

If Kaaya had done anything (pay attention here...annnyyything) prior to whatever procedure took place it could change the perception. He didn't.

It's basically the excuse he's clinging to because it's all he got. In the same way we all know when Dobbs doesn't become a HOFer he'll say he would have if he had gotten a shot, and act like he was still right.

 

[hndog609]

It's basically the excuse he's clinging to because it's all he got. In the same way we all know when Dobbs doesn't become a HOFer he'll say he would have if he had gotten a shot, and act like he was still right.

It's hard to come up with what his best end around on predictions might be. The "just wait" is always a fall back for him, nobody kicks the can down the road like that guy, but off the top of my head Joey Bosa's success (a predicted bust) being "lucky" is a pretty good one.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

It's hard to come up with what his best end around on predictions might be. The "just wait" is always a fall back for him, nobody kicks the can down the road like that guy, but off the top of my head Joey Bosa's success (a predicted bust) being "lucky" is a pretty good one.

One of my favorites is when someone he called a bust does well, he says "flash in the pan, look at RGIII!", but when it's someone he said wouldn't be a bust and they do well early it's "SEE I was right!" even though they might suck in a few years.

The other is when he calls out outliers, then with someone like Dobbs uses outliers to "prove" his point.

 

[hndog609]

One of my favorites is when someone he called a bust does well, he says "flash in the pan, look at RGIII!", but when it's someone he said wouldn't be a bust and they do well early it's "SEE I was right!" even though they might suck in a few years.

The other is when he calls out outliers, then with someone like Dobbs uses outliers to "prove" his point.

Yep, timelines are completely malleable for they guy. For instance with Hogan, who he was quite high on, (literally posted "might be the best QB in this draft") the can got kicked down the road after being waived by the Cheifs until the faintest wafting of news favorable to him could be brought up.

And while I'm patting myself on the back, my guy Kevin Hogan is looking like he'll be the starting QB of the Cleveland Browns moving forward. Deshone Kizer got benched after throwing another interception this week and Hogan came in for him and lead 2 TD drives. He's slowly improving and becoming the player I thought he could be.

He'll never be a star. But he can be a solid starter in this league.

So what was the result of immediately crowing about Hogan's emergence? A career 60 of 101 with 4td and 7int. He's since floated through Washington and Denver and AFAIK currently without a team. Now consider that he said Bosa, after a great rookie season, would be required to demonstrate multiple years of double digit sacks for him not to be, you know, lucky. It's pretty hilarious really.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Like how's that Pro Bowl career of John Kelly going?

My comp for John Kelly was Priest Holmes. Go and look up Holmes' career. He was a late bloomer who didn't become a star until he was 28 years old. Looks like JK is gonna be a late bloomer as well.

As with Dobbs, I still have confidence in JK eventually becoming a star in the NFL.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Nobody is saying there wasn't "some" kind of back issue with "some" kind of surgery taking place. In the total absence of anything that describes or even acknowledges a health issue from precisely the people charged with reporting just that sort of thing on an incoming player why should anyone simply make the assumption that was the limiting factor?

If Kaaya had done anything (pay attention here...annnyyything) prior to whatever procedure took place it could change the perception. He didn't.

Please cite one post I have made where I claim Brad Kaaya had done anything in the NFL to warrant any change in perception about him?

My argument is very simple. He was a late round rookie QB who bounced around on a couple of practice squads during his first year. Nothing unusual about that. Its very common now given the fact most teams only carry 2 QBs on the active roster. Then in September 2018 he has "spinal surgery". He's put on the Colts injured reserve. Then in February 2019 he's claimed off waivers by the Bengals before they decline to sign him. All this is once again normal. We see lots of young QBs go through this process.

What is unusual, however, is the fact he totally disappears after this. You guys have tried to argue this is because he simply isn't good enough. I claim its most likely because of the injury. Just as a comparison look at another late round QB who similarly has proven nothing on the NFL level: Logan Woodside - Wikipedia

Logan Woodside was drafted in the 7th round in 2018 by the Bengals. He was cut after training camp his rookie year. The Titans claimed him off waivers. They later cut him. He ended up playing in the AAF in 2019. After the AAF suspended operations, he was signed back by the Titans and is currently the backup to Ryan Tannehill.

Its totally reasonable to think Kaaya wasn't good enough for NFL teams to sign him. But do you really think he isn't good enough to play in the AAF or XFL?

For yalls theory to be true that his spinal injury had no effect on why he's no longer in the NFL, then you also have to believe he was not good enough to play in either the AAF or XFL. To me that makes zero sense. Even if Kaaya isn't good he was still a much bigger name in the college ranks than someone like Logan Woodside. You have to think at least one of these teams in these other leagues would sign him if he was totally healthy.

To me the fact he totally disappears off the face of the earth (football-wise) after that spinal surgery in 2018 is compelling evidence that the injury is a major reason he is no longer playing football.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

It's basically the excuse he's clinging to because it's all he got. In the same way we all know when Dobbs doesn't become a HOFer he'll say he would have if he had gotten a shot, and act like he was still right.

No because at some point if Dobbs continues to hang around on an NFL roster he will get a shot. The thing with Kaaya is he basically disappeared after his rookie year.

 

[n_huffhines]

My comp for John Kelly was Priest Holmes. Go and look up Holmes' career. He was a late bloomer who didn't become a star until he was 28 years old. Looks like JK is gonna be a late bloomer as well.

As with Dobbs, I still have confidence in JK eventually becoming a star in the NFL.

And when he doesn't, you'll grasp onto some injury or story about how he never got a fair shake. It doesn't sound like you compared him to PH because you thought he'd bloom late, so you get no credit for this aspect of the comp.

Holmes had 1000 yards his second season, FYI.

 

[hndog609]

Please cite one post I have made where I claim Brad Kaaya had done anything in the NFL to warrant any change in perception about him?

My argument is very simple. He was a late round rookie QB who bounced around on a couple of practice squads during his first year. Nothing unusual about that. Its very common now given the fact most teams only carry 2 QBs on the active roster. Then in September 2018 he has "spinal surgery". He's put on the Colts injured reserve. Then in February 2019 he's claimed off waivers by the Bengals before they decline to sign him. All this is once again normal. We see lots of young QBs go through this process.

What is unusual, however, is the fact he totally disappears after this. You guys have tried to argue this is because he simply isn't good enough. I claim its most likely because of the injury. Just as a comparison look at another late round QB who similarly has proven nothing on the NFL level: Logan Woodside - Wikipedia

Logan Woodside was drafted in the 7th round in 2018 by the Bengals. He was cut after training camp his rookie year. The Titans claimed him off waivers. They later cut him. He ended up playing in the AAF in 2019. After the AAF suspended operations, he was signed back by the Titans and is currently the backup to Ryan Tannehill.

Its totally reasonable to think Kaaya wasn't good enough for NFL teams to sign him. But do you really think he isn't good enough to play in the AAF or XFL?

For yalls theory to be true that his spinal injury had no effect on why he's no longer in the NFL, then you also have to believe he was not good enough to play in either the AAF or XFL. To me that makes zero sense. Even if Kaaya isn't good he was still a much bigger name in the college ranks than someone like Logan Woodside. You have to think at least one of these teams in these other leagues would sign him if he was totally healthy.

To me the fact he totally disappears off the face of the earth (football-wise) after that spinal surgery in 2018 is compelling evidence that the injury is a major reason he is no longer playing football.

What a glorious mess and a good opportunity to just but a bow on things.

Did you see the IF at the beginning of the sentence you're referencing in your opening paragraph? It's citing a scenario that could have happened that might have moved the needle on people's perceptions of what could have been. It didn't. Your pointing out you haven't posted as much is merely reaffirming that, quite simply, you can't.

The next part couldn't have underscored how bad your position in the discussion has become. Your #2 QB (ranked above Watson and Mahomes) and #16 player regardless of position in the '17 draft has you scrambling to come up with "but...but...what about Logan Woodside?". Really? Seriously, ponder that for a moment. For pure "what if" let's say we swapped places and Kaaya was in the place of Woodside...you think that'd be saving the prediction you made for Kaaya? Oh wait, let me guess, he'd be riding one of those many kicking the can down the road "just wait, I'll be vindicated eventually" timelines, right?

This all started because Kaaya was brought up as another "miss" by you. There is zero, zip, zilch, nada that controverts that assessment in any way. The absolute best thing you can muster is a "Yeah, but what if, maybe, could have..." tagged on to the end of this:


And even that "what if" is entirely dependent on the positive assertion of a medical issue that literally nobody has ever acknowledged. He was acquired by the Bengals (post whatever it was) and any such issue was not even worth mentioning, nevermind cited as playing a role. (don't confuse this with saying there wasn't anything ever, I clearly stated "cited as playing a role")

Look, maybe, just maybe, a guy that had any health concerns whatsoever in his head and basically zero reason to believe his NFL career had any real future (see above + Bengals taking a pass) decided it's time to let it go. I'm not going to fault the guy...if he didn't have "it" and trying to pound a square peg into a round hole didn't appeal to him so be it, his choice. You're left holding the bag of Kaaya never, ever, for one nanosecond, including before any injury questions are even in play, coming anywhere close to what you'd said he'd be. It's on your resume and not going anywhere.

 

[hndog609]

And when he doesn't, you'll grasp onto some injury or story about how he never got a fair shake. It doesn't sound like you compared him to PH because you thought he'd bloom late, so you get no credit for this aspect of the comp.

Holmes had 1000 yards his second season, FYI.

Yep, and the year after was limited to 89 attempts though did average 5.7ypc. The the next season a fellow by the name of Jamal Lewis came to Baltimore and, well, that was kinda that for Priest having any chance of being the man for the Ravens.

 

[n_huffhines]

Yep, and the year after was limited to 89 attempts though did average 5.7ypc. The the next season a fellow by the name of Jamal Lewis came to Baltimore and, well, that was kinda that for Priest having any chance of being the man for the Ravens.

IIRC, Holmes succeeded in KC, not because he was a late bloomer, but because their style of playcalling favored his skills...specifically lots of stretch, and off tackle stuff, as well as the fact that Trent Green leveraged his receiving skills better than Harbaugh did. Ravens were mostly just running it up the gut with a weak passing game.

The Rams currently offer JK what the Chiefs offered PH.

 

[butchna]

IIRC, Holmes succeeded in KC, not because he was a late bloomer, but because their style of playcalling favored his skills...specifically lots of stretch, and off tackle stuff, as well as the fact that Trent Green leveraged his receiving skills better than Harbaugh did. Ravens were mostly just running it up the gut with a weak passing game.

The Rams currently offer JK what the Chiefs offered PH.

He’s with the Browns tho.

 

[n_huffhines]

He’s with the Browns tho.

Because it didn't work out with the Rams, who were definitely looking for their next RB when JK was there.

 

[butchna]

Because it didn't work out with the Rams, who were definitely looking for their next RB when JK was there.

When Gurley would get hurt (which was often) they barely gave him a sniff. I don’t disagree that he fit that offense, but the powers that be weren’t into him.

 

[hndog609]

When Gurley would get hurt (which was often) they barely gave him a sniff. I don’t disagree that he fit that offense, but the powers that be weren’t into him.

Might be tough sledding to break out behind Chubb and Hunt.

 

[butchna]

Might be tough sledding to break out behind Chubb and Hunt.

Chubb’s out for the season.

Edit: Returns in November. Give me the ideal team that’ll give him a shot.

 

[n_huffhines]

When Gurley would get hurt (which was often) they barely gave him a sniff. I don’t disagree that he fit that offense, but the powers that be weren’t into him.

I agree that he could use more opportunity, but he got 30 carries, which is more than a sniff, and he averaged 2.8 ypc. It's hard to justify more touches when the results are that bad.