Josh Pate insults Pat Forde

[Vol8188]

So those Dartmouth Alumni are poor?

That’s not the question

 

[JohnWardForever]

I don't love the idea of athletes being "employees". I actually think that's a backdoor attempt at giving power back to people who shouldn't have it.

That said, the NCAA refused to evolve with the realities of college sports. It won't break my heart when it is replaced by something better.

BTW, Pate isn't just wrong but badly wrong about the extent of players being paid before NIL. It wasn't just $100 hand shakes.

No it wasn't just $100 handshakes. New Dodge Chargers all over the Tuscaloosa Practice Field parking lot. With a few Nick Saban dealership's Mercedes.

 

[joevol33]

Remember, while some media agencies has hated on us, other media has had our back like On3, Late Kick, etc. Support the media that has defend us.

For example, Andy Staples at On3 has had our back throughout.

I see positive stuff on Facebook almost daily from On3

 

[kcvols1]

That's going to happen all over college sports when it's all said and done. Many smaller colleges and universities will have no choice but to shut down their athletic programs.

You’re assuming that being unionized means they’ll have the leverage to negotiate salary.

Receiving the value of the education at Dartmouth might have them well over minimum wage even when you factor in they’re probably putting in more than 40 hours at basketball.

 

[kcvols1]

I see collectives and everything else that is trying to get money from "regular guys" (not big money donors) really struggling if players are employees. IMO, most people are not going to give any more than they have to in order to get their tickets (ticket fee plus donor requirement).

The UTAD can likely find the budget to pay at least minimum wage to every varsity athlete.

Again, I’m not sure what leverage they’d have to effectively and collectively negotiate that salary.

I suspect those numbers will be a lot smaller than anyone thinks, e.g. Bru getting $600 for appearing in EA NCAA Football.

 

[RockyTop140]

I see collectives and everything else that is trying to get money from "regular guys" (not big money donors) really struggling if players are employees. IMO, most people are not going to give any more than they have to in order to get their tickets (ticket fee plus donor requirement).

Yeah that’s a good point. If the players ever became employees, you’re not gonna be getting donations from fans anymore most likely. I’m sure donors will still give, but even they will likely back off some

 

[GoVols64]

But what standard are they being held to? If they're poor, they're poor. They only pay what they can afford to pay. If they can't afford to pay anything, they take the players who are willing to play sports without pay, just for the love of it. And there are a LOT of players out there, in all sports (yes, including football and basketball) who would still play if no one were willing to pay them.


Ditto. And keep in mind: the players with NIL deals, they're employees of the NIL co-ops (or, in many cases, self-employed under contract). They're not employees of the universities, and I don't believe they ever will be. That's not the model we're evolving toward.

The smaller schools are gonna be fine, I think. They'll compete at their own level and be fine.

Nothing really changes as they would still be "on scholarship" and have cost avoidance of academic fees, books, housing etc. The question is employee vs. 1099. Then benefits come into play where I could see some sports go away but certianly not the ones that generate revenue.

Another thought is how important are some sports to attract the students you want? Smaller schools in D1/2 will figure it out if the big sports are a critical component. D3 has never had scholarships but offer tuition assistance so that would be largely unaffected.

Last hurdle will be Title IX compliance.....

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

Why would it lead to salary caps

For the same reasons it is in place in all other sports where players are paid by the teams. Is there a pro sport without them?

The hell hole will be the variability of how different schools handle a plethora of related areas like insurance, employee tuition rates, etc. A raft of lawsuits if they are not real careful. Uncle Sam will be a frequent visitor too in order to get their cut of every dollar when they move from amateur to professional relationship. No free room and board for example... outside of training table itself. No state income tax will be a big advantage when having to report all those previous freebies. Maybe that was the SCOTUS plan all along. Bet they did not get a bunch of perks on the debate and college bowl teams.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

Nothing really changes as they would still be "on scholarship" and have cost avoidance of academic fees, books, housing etc. The question is employee vs. 1099. Then benefits come into play where I could see some sports go away but certianly not the ones that generate revenue.

Another thought is how important are some sports to attract the students you want? Smaller schools in D1/2 will figure it out if the big sports are a critical component. D3 has never had scholarships but offer tuition assistance so that would be largely unaffected.

Last hurdle will be Title IX compliance.....

Paid employees getting free tuition and room and board? Doubt it. A billion years ago I had to start paying cops enough to pay their rent in apartment complexes to be security instead of comping it. Uncle Sam wants not only his income tax cut, he wants social security for every dang dollar. You think NFL guys get free housing? Or free off season meals?

 

[lukeneyland]

Pate is solid

 

[wmcovol]

The problem is if you label them as employees, how many schools can afford to pay even a small salary? Especially to non revenue sports. Can Dartmouth provide a minimum wage salary to their rowing team? I doubt it.

Those schools aren’t in this game anyway. They’ll get out of athletics

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Those schools aren’t in this game anyway. They’ll get out of athletics

No one has to get out of athletics.

The schools who have no NIL co-op, or none to speak of, will attract the players who aren't good enough to attract NIL deals anyway, who are happy to play the sport for the love of it.

This isn't news, and it shouldn't be shocking. Even now, there are plenty of college athletes playing for free. Including at Tennessee. Including on the football team.

It's a sport. People play it. That makes it intrinsically different than a job. People who can get an NIL deal will, of course. But those who can't, they'll still play. For fun, for the challenge, for the chicks, maybe. Who knows? It's a sport.

Go Vols!

 

[GoVols64]

Paid employees getting free tuition and room and board? Doubt it. A billion years ago I had to start paying cops enough to pay their rent in apartment complexes to be security instead of comping it. Uncle Sam wants not only his income tax cut, he wants social security for every dang dollar. You think NFL guys get free housing? Or free off season meals?

I’m not sure how your example pertains to this developing and dynamic situation. Taxes will, of course, be a factor for employees but nothing you can’t “true up.” They can structure pay however they want to accommodate for Uncle Sam and will likely pay experts to figure it out.

As for the NFL I’m not seeing the tie in. No one is suggesting players get a free house. I don’t know but I’m also guessing they are not charged for housing at camp or any mandatory team activity requiring an overnight stay. Besides, schools could very easily charge students for an athletic dorm or simply make it a benefit of employment.

There are a billion ways this could go and we are just seeing the start of it.

 

[Vol8188]

For the same reasons it is in place in all other sports where players are paid by the teams. Is there a pro sport without them?

The hell hole will be the variability of how different schools handle a plethora of related areas like insurance, employee tuition rates, etc. A raft of lawsuits if they are not real careful. Uncle Sam will be a frequent visitor too in order to get their cut of every dollar when they move from amateur to professional relationship. No free room and board for example... outside of training table itself. No state income tax will be a big advantage when having to report all those previous freebies. Maybe that was the SCOTUS plan all along. Bet they did not get a bunch of perks on the debate and college bowl teams.

Pro sports do it, doesn’t mean college football will or should do it. A big argument for salary caps is that it levels the playing field. That’s the opposite of what college football wants/needs.

No one ever rips their goalposts down in the nfl, no one storms the field. Because even the worse team beating the best team, is very possible in the NFL.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

Pro sports do it, doesn’t mean college football will or should do it. A big argument for salary caps is that it levels the playing field. That’s the opposite of what college football wants/needs.

No one ever rips their goalposts down in the nfl, no one storms the field. Because even the worse team beating the best team, is very possible in the NFL.

Opposite? Is the one objective to let a powerful collective buy 85 of the best? CAPS along with the draft spreads each new class across the NFL.

The worst team can beat the better teams cause they get the early picks in the draft every year till their talent level gets them closer to even.

You suggesting a draft WITH MULTI-year schollies for D1 football? FCS MAYBE? Then you can ignore NIL to a degree. NONE. of Peyton’s endorsement deals while under contract could influence his NFL team. BAMA and GA won’t sniff many top 30 game changers.

LIKE I said in another post, the vote to go to a draft would be 300-4.

If you go pro, then there is no prioritizing educational pursuits and player determination of school.

 

[Vol8188]

Opposite? Is the one objective to let a powerful collective buy 85 of the best? CAPS along with the draft spreads each new class across the NFL.

The worst team can beat the better teams cause they get the early picks in the draft every year till their talent level gets them closer to even.

You suggesting a draft WITH MULTI-year schollies for D1 football? FCS MAYBE? Then you can ignore NIL to a degree. NONE. of Peyton’s endorsement deals while under contract could influence his NFL team. BAMA and GA won’t sniff many top 30 game changers.

LIKE I said in another post, the vote to go to a draft would be 300-4.

If you go pro, then there is no prioritizing educational pursuits and player determination of school.

Idk how you could’ve got the idea that I want a draft based on anything I said. Not sure why you went on that wild tangent.

 

[vol_in_ga]

Refers to "Pseudo" media lol.

Can’t spell pseudo without pat fordes ugly mug.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

Idk how you could’ve got the idea that I want a draft based on anything I said. Not sure why you went on that wild tangent.

The better solution for fair player distribution in a true employee model, the reasons the pros start with smaller roster limits, a draft AND salary caps. Would be a little ugly with 128 first round selections for FCS schools, so I am guessing a new super division would be created for the pro model and the amateur schollie with NIL for the balance. The top 300 players each year would only last a little over 2 rounds if not.

 

[Vol8188]

The better solution for fair player distribution in a true employee model, the reasons the pros start with smaller roster limits, a draft AND salary caps. Would be a little ugly with 128 first round selections for FCS schools, so I am guessing a new super division would be created for the pro model and the amateur schollie with NIL for the balance. The top 300 players each year would only last a little over 2 rounds if not.

Why do you keep assuming “fair” to be the objective?

You’re all over the maps here. No one is saying we should have a draft.

 

[krichunaka]

It empowers them... and it is what many fans and the universities want.

If you work for someone else then you are subject to a salary cap whether you realize it or not. I have a pay scale with medians for each position. We typically start people at 80-85% of their median. High performers achieve the median faster but they all move toward the median. After getting there the resistance grows. Only in very special cases can I ever pay someone more than about 110% of their median.

Eventually the scale moves and loosens things up due to inflation. But even the best employees have their raises slow as they move past the median. That's an effective salary cap.

Another way of looking at it is that my labor budget is limited to a certain amount. Even if the above were not true I would have to find a way to distribute those limited funds equitably. To pay one QB $5 million... you might have to pay your back up $1 million and accept a lower quality player.

Why do you think they WANT to have them become employees?

Oh, if declared employees then the "employers" also gain more power over what they can do for a side gig... like NIL.

Informative post. Thanks.

Which prompts a question, if you don't mind: Do you (or anyone) think this ruling, might lead, as method of budgeting, to a reduction of scholarships, and most-specifically for football? I'm sure everyone is familiar with the beloved Steve Spurrier's comments of a few decades ago, in which he opined that (paraphrasing) "If the NFL can manage with 53, surely then we could function with fewer than (whatever the limit was at the time)."

I'm likely in the minority, but it (a reduction) appears a reasonable first step. I'm thinking of the number 72. Which would, though cruel as it seems, inevitably shove several borderline P-5s into (working for) the lower-rated, and lower-paying schools. But hey, "it's the economy, stu....".
Would trimming what, 13 scholarships, inflict irreparable damage? Would it render the sport an unwatchable circus? The scholarships, plus other maintenance - food, equipment, travel, tutoring, etc. - would make for considerable savings. But, all this stipulates everyone would finally be playing by the same rules.

I don't mean to sound insensitive. Just trying to make dollars and cents of it all.

 

[sjt18]

Informative post. Thanks.

Which prompts a question, if you don't mind: Do you (or anyone) think this ruling, might lead, as method of budgeting, to a reduction of scholarships, and most-specifically for football? I'm sure everyone is familiar with the beloved Steve Spurrier's comments of a few decades ago, in which he opined that (paraphrasing) "If the NFL can manage with 53, surely then we could function with fewer than (whatever the limit was at the time)."

I'm likely in the minority, but it (a reduction) appears a reasonable first step. I'm thinking of the number 72. Which would, though cruel as it seems, inevitably shove several borderline P-5s into (working for) the lower-rated, and lower-paying schools. But hey, "it's the economy, stu....".
Would trimming what, 13 scholarships, inflict irreparable damage? Would it render the sport an unwatchable circus? The scholarships, plus other maintenance - food, equipment, travel, tutoring, etc. - would make for considerable savings. But, all this stipulates everyone would finally be playing by the same rules.

I don't mean to sound insensitive. Just trying to make dollars and cents of it all.

You make a good point. I think it would be a bad move since CFB players usually need a 1-3 years of physical and mental development before contributing. However to control football costs, you could be right.

Another thing you just made me think of is Title IX. Make the athletes "employees" and suddenly women participating in racketball can make a discrimination complaint if they don't make as much as the QB.

I am even more convinced making the athletes employees would be bad for everyone and especially the athletes.

 

[Ernie McCracken]

I for one like and respect Josh Pates and On3 takes. Seems fair and honest opinions. Don't seem to be bias as much as Forde, Finebaum, ESPN (Clowns) etc. Just my thoughts!! Oh and outstanding win to the BBVols tonight.

GBO

 

[Chad F]

It’s difficult to insult a bottom-feeding hack.